Start reading Oathbringer, the new volume of Brandon Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive epic, right now. For free!
Tor.com is serializing the much-awaited third volume in the Stormlight Archive series every Tuesday until the novel’s November 14, 2017 release date.
Every installment is collected here in the Oathbringer index.
Need a refresher on the Stormlight Archive before beginning Oathbringer? Here’s a summary of what happened in Book 1: The Way of Kings and Book 2: Words of Radiance.
Spoiler warning: Comments will contain spoilers for previous Stormlight books, other works that take place in Sanderson’s cosmere (Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, etc.), and the available chapters of Oathbringer, along with speculation regarding the chapters yet to come.
Part One: United
Dalinar * Shallan * Kaladin * Adolin
Chapter 1
Broken and Divided
I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist.
—From Oathbringer, preface
Dalinar Kholin appeared in the vision standing beside the memory of a dead god.
It had been six days since his forces had arrived at Urithiru, legendary holy tower city of the Knights Radiant. They had escaped the arrival of a new devastating storm, seeking refuge through an ancient portal. They were settling into their new home hidden in the mountains.
And yet, Dalinar felt as if he knew nothing. He didn’t understand the force he fought, let alone how to defeat it. He barely understood the storm, and what it meant in returning the Voidbringers, ancient enemies of men.
So he came here, into his visions. Seeking to pull secrets from the god—named Honor, or the Almighty—who had left them. This particular vision was the first that Dalinar had ever experienced. It began with him standing next to an image of the god in human form, both perched atop a cliff overlooking Kholinar: Dalinar’s home, seat of the government. In the vision, the city had been destroyed by some unknown force.
The Almighty started speaking, but Dalinar ignored him. Dalinar had become a Knight Radiant by bonding the Stormfather himself—soul of the highstorm, most powerful spren on Roshar—and Dalinar had discovered he could now have these visions replayed for him at will. He’d already heard this monologue three times, and had repeated it word for word to Navani for transcription.
This time, Dalinar instead walked to the edge of the cliff and knelt to look out upon the ruins of Kholinar. The air smelled dry here, dusty and warm. He squinted, trying to extract some meaningful detail from the chaos of broken buildings. Even the windblades—once magnificent, sleek rock formations exposing countless strata and variations—had been shattered.
The Almighty continued his speech. These visions were like a diary, a set of immersive messages the god had left behind. Dalinar appreciated the help, but right now he wanted details.
He searched the sky and discovered a ripple in the air, like heat rising from distant stone. A shimmer the size of a building.
“Stormfather,” he said. “Can you take me down below, into the rubble?”
You are not supposed to go there. That is not part of the vision.
“Ignore what I’m supposed to do, for the moment,” Dalinar said. “Can you do it? Can you transport me to those ruins?”
The Stormfather rumbled. He was a strange being, somehow connected to the dead god, but not exactly the same thing as the Almighty. At least today he wasn’t using a voice that rattled Dalinar’s bones.
In an eyeblink, Dalinar was transported. He no longer stood atop the cliff, but was on the plains down before the ruins of the city.
“Thank you,” Dalinar said, striding the short remaining distance to the ruins.
Only six days had passed since their discovery of Urithiru. Six days since the awakening of the Parshendi, who had gained strange powers and glowing red eyes. Six days since the arrival of the new storm—the Everstorm, a tempest of dark thunderheads and red lightning.
Some in his armies thought that it was finished, the storm over as one catastrophic event. Dalinar knew otherwise. The Everstorm would return, and would soon hit Shinovar in the far west. Following that, it would course across the land.
Nobody believed his warnings. Monarchs in places like Azir and Thaylenah admitted that a strange storm had appeared in the east, but they didn’t believe it would return.
They couldn’t guess how destructive this storm’s return would be. When it had first appeared, it had clashed with the highstorm, creating a unique cataclysm. Hopefully it would not be as bad on its own—but it would still be a storm blowing the wrong way. And it would awaken the world’s parshman servants and make them into Voidbringers.
What do you expect to learn? the Stormfather said as Dalinar reached the rubble of the city. This vision was constructed to draw you to the ridge to speak with Honor. The rest is backdrop, a painting.
“Honor put this rubble here,” Dalinar said, waving toward the broken walls heaped before him. “Backdrop or not, his knowledge of the world and our enemy couldn’t help but affect the way he made this vision.”
Dalinar hiked up the rubble of the outer walls. Kholinar had been… storm it, Kholinar was . . . a grand city, like few in the world. Instead of hiding in the shadow of a cliff or inside a sheltered chasm, Kholinar trusted in its enormous walls to buffer it from highstorm winds. It defied the winds, and did not bow to the storms.
In this vision, something had destroyed it anyway. Dalinar crested the detritus and surveyed the area, trying to imagine how it had felt to settle here so many millennia ago. Back when there had been no walls. It had been a hardy, stubborn lot who had grown this place.
He saw scrapes and gouges on the stones of the fallen walls, like those made by a predator in the flesh of its prey. The windblades had been smashed, and from up close he could see claw marks on one of those as well.
“I’ve seen creatures that could do this,” he said, kneeling beside one of the stones, feeling the rough gash in the granite surface. “In my visions, I witnessed a stone monster that ripped itself free of the underlying rock.
“There are no corpses, but that’s probably because the Almighty didn’t populate the city in this vision. He just wanted a symbol of the coming destruction. He didn’t think Kholinar would fall to the Everstorm, but to the Voidbringers.”
Yes, the Stormfather said. The storm will be a catastrophe, but not nearly on the scale of what follows. You can find refuge from storms, Son of Honor. Not so with our enemies.
Now that the monarchs of Roshar had refused to listen to Dalinar’s warning that the Everstorm would soon strike them, what else could Dalinar do? The real Kholinar was reportedly consumed by riots—and the queen had gone silent. Dalinar’s armies had limped away from their first confrontation with the Voidbringers, and even many of his own highprinces hadn’t joined him in that battle.
A war was coming. In awakening the Desolation, the enemy had rekindled a millennia-old conflict of ancient creatures with inscrutable motivations and unknown powers. Heralds were supposed to appear and lead the charge against the Voidbringers. The Knights Radiant should have already been in place, prepared and trained, ready to face the enemy. They were supposed to be able to trust in the guidance of the Almighty.
Instead, Dalinar had only a handful of new Radiants, and there was no sign of help from the Heralds. And beyond that, the Almighty—God himself—was dead.
Somehow, Dalinar was supposed to save the world anyway.
The ground started to tremble; the vision was ending with the land falling away. Atop the cliff, the Almighty would have just concluded his speech.
A final wave of destruction rolled across the land like a highstorm. A metaphor designed by the Almighty to represent the darkness and devastation that was coming upon humankind.
Your legends say that you won, he had said. But the truth is that we lost.
And we are losing. . . .
The Stormfather rumbled. It is time to go.
“No,” Dalinar said, standing atop the rubble. “Leave me.”
But—
“Let me feel it!”
The wave of destruction struck, crashing against Dalinar, and he shouted defiance. He had not bowed before the highstorm; he would not bow before this! He faced it head-on, and in the blast of power that ripped apart the ground, he saw something.
A golden light, brilliant yet terrible. Standing before it, a dark figure in black Shardplate. The figure had nine shadows, each spreading out in a different direction, and its eyes glowed a brilliant red.
Dalinar stared deep into those eyes, and felt a chill wash through him. Though the destruction raged around him, vaporizing rocks, those eyes frightened him more. He saw something terribly familiar in them.
This was a danger far beyond even the storms.
This was the enemy’s champion. And he was coming.
UNITE THEM. QUICKLY.
Dalinar gasped as the vision shattered. He found himself sitting beside Navani in a quiet stone room in the tower city of Urithiru. Dalinar didn’t need to be bound for visions any longer; he had enough control over them that he had ceased acting them out while experiencing them.
He breathed deeply, sweat trickling down his face, his heart racing. Navani said something, but for the moment he couldn’t hear her. She seemed distant compared to the rushing in his ears.
“What was that light I saw?” he whispered.
I saw no light, the Stormfather said.
“It was brilliant and golden, but terrible,” Dalinar whispered. “It bathed everything in its heat.”
Odium, the Stormfather rumbled. The enemy.
The god who had killed the Almighty. The force behind the Desolations.
“Nine shadows,” Dalinar whispered, trembling.
Nine shadows? The Unmade. His minions, ancient spren.
Storms. Dalinar knew of them from legend only. Terrible spren who twisted the minds of men.
Still, those eyes haunted him. As frightening as it was to contemplate the Unmade, he feared that figure with the red eyes the most. Odium’s champion.
Dalinar blinked, looking to Navani, the woman he loved, her face painfully concerned as she held his arm. In this strange place and stranger time, she was something real. Something to hold on to. A mature beauty—in some ways the picture of a perfect Vorin woman: lush lips, light violet eyes, silvering black hair in perfect braids, curves accentuated by the tight silk havah. No man would ever accuse Navani of being scrawny.
“Dalinar?” she asked. “Dalinar, what happened? Are you well?”
“I’m…” He drew in a deep breath. “I’m well, Navani. And I know what we must do.”
Her frown deepened. “What?”
“I have to unite the world against the enemy faster than he can destroy it.”
He had to find a way to make the other monarchs of the world listen to him. He had to prepare them for the new storm and the Voidbringers. And, barring that, he had to help them survive the effects.
But if he succeeded, he wouldn’t have to face the Desolation alone. This was not a matter of one nation against the Voidbringers. He needed the kingdoms of the world to join him, and he needed to find the Knights Radiant who were being created among their populations.
Unite them.
“Dalinar,” she said, “I think that’s a worthy goal… but storms, what of ourselves? This mountainside is a wasteland—what are we going to feed our armies?”
“The Soulcasters—”
“Will run out of gemstones eventually,” Navani said. “And they can create only the basic necessities. Dalinar, we’re half frozen up here, broken and divided. Our command structure is in disarray, and it—”
“Peace, Navani,” Dalinar said, rising. He pulled her to her feet. “I know. We have to fight anyway.”
She embraced him. He held to her, feeling her warmth, smelling her perfume. She preferred a less floral scent than other women—a fragrance with spice to it, like the aroma of newly cut wood.
“We can do this,” he told her. “My tenacity. Your brilliance. Together, we will convince the other kingdoms to join with us. They’ll see when the storm returns that our warnings were right, and they’ll unite against the enemy. We can use the Oathgates to move troops and to support each other.”
The Oathgates. Ten portals, ancient fabrials, were gateways to Urithiru. When a Knight Radiant activated one of the devices, those people standing upon its surrounding platform were brought to Urithiru, appearing on a similar device here at the tower.
They only had one pair of Oathgates active now—the ones that moved people back and forth between Urithiru and the Shattered Plains. Nine more could theoretically be made to work—but unfortunately, their research determined that a mechanism inside each of them had to be unlocked from both sides before they’d work.
If he wanted to travel to Vedenar, Thaylen City, Azimir, or any of the other locations, they’d first need to get one of their Radiants to the city and unlock the device.
“All right,” she said. “We’ll do it. Somehow we’ll make them listen—even if they’ve got their fingers planted firmly in their ears. Makes one wonder how they manage it, with their heads rammed up their own backsides.”
He smiled, and suddenly thought himself foolish for idealizing her just earlier. Navani Kholin was not some timid, perfect ideal—she was a sour storm of a woman, set in her ways, stubborn as a boulder rolling down a mountain and increasingly impatient with things she considered foolish.
He loved her the most for that. For being open and genuine in a society that prided itself on secrets. She’d been breaking taboos, and hearts, since their youth. At times, the idea that she loved him back seemed as surreal as one of his visions.
A knock came at the door to his room, and Navani called for the person to enter. One of Dalinar’s scouts poked her head in through the door. Dalinar turned, frowning, noting the woman’s nervous posture and quick breathing.
“What?” he demanded.
“Sir,” the woman said, saluting, face pale. “There’s… been an incident. A corpse discovered in the corridors.”
Dalinar felt something building, an energy in the air like the sensation of lightning about to strike. “Who?”
“Highprince Torol Sadeas, sir,” the woman said. “He’s been murdered.”
Chapter 2
One Problem Solved
I needed to write it anyway.
—From Oathbringer, preface
“Stop! What do you think you’re doing?” Adolin Kholin strode over to a group of workers in crem-stained work outfits who were unloading boxes from the back of a wagon. Their chull twisted, trying to search out rockbuds to munch on. Fruitlessly. They were deep within the tower, for all the fact that this cavern was as large as a small town.
The workers had the decency to look chagrined, though they probably didn’t know what for. A flock of scribes trailing Adolin checked the contents of the wagon. Oil lamps on the ground did little to push back the darkness of the enormous room, which had a ceiling that went up four stories.
“Brightlord?” one of the workers asked, scratching at his hair beneath his cap. “I was just unloadin’. That’s what I think I was doin’.”
“Manifest says beer,” Rushu—a young ardent—told Adolin.
“Section two,” Adolin said, rapping the knuckles of his left hand against the wagon. “Taverns are being set up along the central corridor with the lifts, six crossroads inward. My aunt expressly told your highlords this.”
The men just stared at him blankly.
“I can have a scribe show you. Pick these boxes back up.”
The men sighed, but started reloading their wagon. They knew better than to argue with the son of a highprince.
Adolin turned to survey the deep cavern, which had become a dumping ground for both supplies and people. Children ran past in groups. Workers set up tents. Women gathered water at the well in the center. Soldiers carried torches or lanterns. Even axehounds raced this way and that. Four entire warcamps full of people had frantically crossed the Shattered Plains to Urithiru, and Navani had struggled to find the right spot for them all.
For all the chaos, though, Adolin was glad to have these people. They were fresh; they hadn’t suffered the battle with the Parshendi, the attack of the Assassin in White, and the terrible clash of two storms.
The Kholin soldiers were in terrible shape. Adolin’s own sword hand was wrapped and still throbbing, his wrist broken during the fighting. His face had a nasty bruise, and he was one of the more lucky ones.
“Brightlord,” Rushu said, pointing at another wagon. “That looks like wines.”
“Delightful,” Adolin said. Was nobody paying attention to Aunt Navani’s directives?
He dealt with this wagon, then had to break up an argument among men who were angry they had been set to hauling water. They claimed that was parshman work, beneath their nahn. Unfortunately, there were no parshmen any longer.
Adolin soothed them and suggested they could start a water haulers’ guild if forced to continue. Father would approve that for certain, though Adolin worried. Would they have the funds to pay all these people? Wages were based on a man’s rank, and you couldn’t just make slaves of men for no reason.
Adolin was glad for the assignment, to distract him. Though he didn’t have to see to each wagon himself—he was here to supervise—he threw himself into the details of the work. He couldn’t exactly spar, not with his wrist in this shape, but if he sat alone too long he started thinking about what had happened the day before.
Had he really done that?
Had he really murdered Torol Sadeas?
It was almost a relief when at long last a runner came for him, whispering that something had been discovered in the corridors of the third floor.
Adolin was certain he knew what it was.
Dalinar heard the shouts long before he arrived. They echoed down the tunnels. He knew that tone. Conflict was near.
He left Navani and broke into a run, sweating as he burst into a wide intersection between tunnels. Men in blue, lit by the harsh light of lanterns, faced off against others in forest green. Angerspren grew from the floor like pools of blood.
A corpse with a green jacket draped over the face lay on the ground.
“Stand down!” Dalinar bellowed, charging into the space between the two groups of soldiers. He pulled back a bridgeman who had gotten right up in the face of one of Sadeas’s soldiers. “Stand down, or I’ll have you all in the stockade, every man!”
His voice hit the men like stormwinds, drawing eyes from both sides. He pushed the bridgeman toward his fellows, then shoved back one of Sadeas’s soldiers, praying the man would have the presence of mind to resist attacking a highprince.
Navani and the scout stopped at the fringes of the conflict. The men from Bridge Four finally backed down one corridor, and Sadeas’s soldiers retreated up the one opposite. Just far enough that they could still glare at one another.
“You’d better be ready for Damnation’s own thunder,” Sadeas’s officer shouted at Dalinar. “Your men murdered a highprince!”
“We found him like this!” Teft of Bridge Four shouted back. “Probably tripped on his own knife. Serves him well, the storming bastard.”
“Teft, stand down!” Dalinar shouted at him.
The bridgeman looked abashed, then saluted with a stiff gesture.
Dalinar knelt, pulling the jacket back from Sadeas’s face. “That blood is dried. He’s been lying here for some time.”
“We’ve been looking for him,” said the officer in green. “Looking for him? You lost your highprince?”
“The tunnels are confusing!” the man said. “They don’t go natural directions. We got turned about and…”
“Thought he might have returned to another part of the tower,” a man said. “We spent last night searching for him there. Some people said they thought they’d seen him, but they were wrong, and…”
And a highprince was left lying here in his own gore for half a day, Dalinar thought. Blood of my fathers.
“We couldn’t find him,” the officer said, “because your men murdered him and moved the body—”
“That blood has been pooling there for hours. Nobody moved the body.” Dalinar pointed. “Place the highprince in that side room there and send for Ialai, if you haven’t. I want to have a better look.”
Dalinar Kholin was a connoisseur of death.
Even since his youth, the sight of dead men had been a familiar thing to him. You stay on the battlefield long enough, and you become familiar with its master.
So Sadeas’s bloodied, ruined face didn’t shock him. The punctured eye, smashed up into the socket by a blade that had been rammed into the brain. Fluid and blood had leaked out, then dried.
A knife through the eye was the sort of wound that killed an armored man wearing a full helm. It was a maneuver you practiced to use on the battlefield. But Sadeas had not been wearing armor and had not been on a battlefield.
Dalinar leaned down, inspecting the body lit by flickering oil lanterns as it lay on the table.
“Assassin,” Navani said, clicking her tongue and shaking her head. “Not good.”
Behind him, Adolin and Renarin gathered with Shallan and a few of the bridgemen. Across from Dalinar stood Kalami; the thin, orange-eyed woman was one of his more senior scribes. They’d lost her husband, Teleb, in the battle against the Voidbringers. He hated to call upon her in her time of grief, but she insisted that she remain on duty.
Storms, he had so few high officers left. Cael had fallen in the clash between Everstorm and highstorm, almost making it to safety. He’d lost Ilamar and Perethom to Sadeas’s betrayal at the Tower. The only highlord he had left was Khal, who was still recuperating from a wound he’d taken during the clash with the Voidbringers—one he’d kept to himself until everyone else was safe.
Even Elhokar, the king, had been wounded by assassins in his palace while the armies were fighting at Narak. He’d been recuperating ever since. Dalinar wasn’t certain if he would come to see Sadeas’s body or not.
Either way, Dalinar’s lack of offi ers explained the room’s other occupants: Highprince Sebarial and his mistress, Palona. Likable or not, Sebarial was one of the two living highprinces who had responded to Dalinar’s call to march for Narak. Dalinar had to rely on someone, and he didn’t trust most of the highprinces farther than the wind could blow them.
Sebarial, along with Aladar—who had been summoned but had not yet arrived—would have to form the foundation of a new Alethkar. Almighty help them all.
“Well!” said Palona, hands on hips as she regarded Sadeas’s corpse. “I guess that’s one problem solved!”
Everyone in the room turned toward her.
“What?” she said. “Don’t tell me you weren’t all thinking it.”
“This is going to look bad, Brightlord,” Kalami said. “Everyone is going to act like those soldiers outside and assume you had him assassinated.”
“Any sign of the Shardblade?” Dalinar asked.
“No, sir,” one of the bridgemen said. “Whoever killed him probably took it.”
Navani rubbed Dalinar on the shoulder. “I wouldn’t have put it as Palona did, but he did try to have you killed. Perhaps this is for the best.”
“No,” Dalinar said, voice hoarse. “We needed him.”
“I know you’re desperate, Dalinar,” Sebarial said. “My presence here is sufficient proof of that. But surely we haven’t sunk so far as to be better off with Sadeas among us. I agree with Palona. Good riddance.”
Dalinar looked up, inspecting those in the room. Sebarial and Palona. Teft and Sigzil, the lieutenants from Bridge Four. A handful of other soldiers, including the young scout woman who had fetched him. His sons, steady Adolin and impenetrable Renarin. Navani, with her hand on his shoulder. Even the aging Kalami, hands clasped before her, meeting his eyes and nodding.
“You all agree, don’t you?” Dalinar asked.
Nobody objected. Yes, this murder was inconvenient for Dalinar’s reputation, and they certainly wouldn’t have gone so far as to kill Sadeas themselves. But now that he was gone… well, why shed any tears?
Memories churned inside Dalinar’s head. Days spent with Sadeas, listening to Gavilar’s grand plans. The night before Dalinar’s wedding, when he’d shared wine with Sadeas at a rowdy feast that Sadeas had organized in his name.
It was hard to reconcile that younger man, that friend, with the thicker, older face on the slab before him. The adult Sadeas had been a murderer whose treachery had caused the deaths of better men. For those men, abandoned during the battle at the Tower, Dalinar could feel only satisfaction at finally seeing Sadeas dead.
That troubled him. He knew exactly how the others were feeling. “Come with me.”
He left the body and strode out of the room. He passed Sadeas’s guards, who hurried back in. They would deal with the corpse; hopefully he’d defused the situation enough to prevent an impromptu clash between his forces and theirs. For now, the best thing to do was get Bridge Four away from here.
Dalinar’s retinue followed him through the halls of the cavernous tower, bearing oil lamps. The walls were twisted with lines—natural strata of alternating earthy colors, like those made by crem drying in layers. He didn’t blame the soldiers for losing track of Sadeas; it was strikingly easy to get lost in this place, with its endless passageways all leading into darkness.
Fortunately, he had an idea of where they were, and led his people to the outer rim of the tower. Here he strode through an empty chamber and stepped out onto a balcony, one of many similar ones that were like wide patios.
Above him rose the enormous tower city of Urithiru, a strikingly high structure built up against the mountains. Created from a sequence of ten ringlike tiers—each containing eighteen levels—the tower city was adorned with aqueducts, windows, and balconies like this one.
The bottom floor also had wide sections jutting out at the perimeter: large stone surfaces, each a plateau in its own right. They had stone railings at their edges, where the rock fell away into the depths of the chasms between mountain peaks. At first, these wide flat sections of stone had baffled them. But the furrows in the stone, and planter boxes on the inner edges, had revealed their purpose. Somehow, these were fields. Like the large spaces for gardens atop each tier of the tower, this area had been farmed, despite the cold. One of these fields extended below this balcony, two levels down.
Dalinar strode up to the edge of the balcony and rested his hands on the smooth stone retaining wall. The others gathered behind him. Along the way they’d picked up Highprince Aladar, a distinguished bald Alethi with dark tan skin. He was accompanied by May, his daughter: a short, pretty woman in her twenties with tan eyes and a round face, her jet-black Alethi hair worn short and curving around her face. Navani whispered to them the details of Sadeas’s death.
Dalinar swept his hand outward in the chill air, pointing away from the balcony. “What do you see?”
The bridgemen gathered to look off the balcony. Their number included the Herdazian, who now had two arms after regrowing the one with Stormlight. Kaladin’s men had begun manifesting powers as Windrunners— though apparently they were merely “squires.” Navani said it was a type of apprentice Radiant that had once been common: men and women whose abilities were tied to their master, a full Radiant.
The men of Bridge Four had not bonded their own spren, and—though they had started manifesting powers—had lost their abilities when Kaladin had flown to Alethkar to warn his family of the Everstorm.
“What do I see?” the Herdazian said. “I see clouds.”
“Lots of clouds,” another bridgeman added.
“Some mountains too,” another said. “They look like teeth.” “Nah, horns,” the Herdazian argued.
“We,” Dalinar interrupted, “are above the storms. It’s going to be easy to forget the tempest the rest of the world is facing. The Everstorm will return, bringing the Voidbringers. We have to assume that this city—our armies— will soon be the only bastion of order left in the world. It is our calling, our duty, to take the lead.”
“Order?” Aladar said. “Dalinar, have you seen our armies? They fought an impossible battle only six days ago, and despite being rescued, we technically lost. Roion’s son is woefully underprepared for dealing with the remnants of his princedom. Some of the strongest forces—those of Thanadal and Vamah—stayed behind in the warcamps!”
“The ones who did come are already squabbling,” Palona added. “Old Torol’s death back there will only give them something else to dissent about.”
Dalinar turned around, gripping the top of the stone wall with both hands, fingers cold. A chill wind blew against him, and a few windspren passed like little translucent people riding on the breeze.
“Brightness Kalami,” Dalinar said. “What do you know of the Desolations?”
“Brightlord?” she asked, hesitant.
“The Desolations. You’ve done scholarly work on Vorin theory, yes? Can you tell us of the Desolations?”
Kalami cleared her throat. “They were destruction made manifest, Brightlord. Each one was so profoundly devastating that humankind was left broken. Populations ruined, society crippled, scholars dead. Humankind was forced to spend generations rebuilding after each one. Songs tell of how the losses compounded upon one another, causing us to slide farther each time, until the Heralds left a people with swords and fabrials and returned to find them wielding sticks and stone axes.”
“And the Voidbringers?” Dalinar asked.
“They came to annihilate,” Kalami said. “Their goal was to wipe humankind from Roshar. They were specters, formless—some say they are spirits of the dead, others spren from Damnation.”
“We will have to find a way to stop this from happening again,” Dalinar said softly, turning back to the group. “We are the ones this world must be able to look to. We must provide stability, a rallying point.
“This is why I cannot rejoice to find Sadeas dead. He was a thorn in my side, but he was a capable general and a brilliant mind. We needed him. Before this is through, we’ll need everyone who can fight.”
“Dalinar,” Aladar said. “I used to bicker. I used to be like the other highprinces. But what I saw on that battlefield… those red eyes… Sir, I’m with you. I will follow you to the ends of the storms themselves. What do you want me to do?”
“Our time is short. Aladar, I name you our new Highprince of Information, in command of the judgment and law of this city. Establish order in Urithiru and make sure that the highprinces have clearly delineated realms of control within it. Build a policing force, and patrol these hallways. Keep the peace, and prevent clashes between soldiers like the one we avoided earlier.
“Sebarial, I name you Highprince of Commerce. Account our supplies and establish marketplaces in Urithiru. I want this tower to become a functioning city, not just a temporary waystop.
“Adolin, see that the armies are put into a training regimen. Count the troops we have, from all the highprinces, and convey to them that their spears will be required for the defense of Roshar. So long as they remain here, they are under my authority as Highprince of War. We’ll crush their squabbling beneath a weight of training. We control the Soulcasters, and we control the food. If they want rations, they’ll have to listen.”
“And us?” the scruffy lieutenant of Bridge Four asked.
“Continue to explore Urithiru with my scouts and scribes,” Dalinar said. “And let me know the moment your captain returns. Hopefully he will bring good news from Alethkar.”
He took a deep breath. A voice echoed in the back of his mind, as if distant. Unite them.
Be ready for when the enemy’s champion arrives.
“Our ultimate goal is the preservation of all Roshar,” Dalinar said softly. “We’ve seen the cost of division in our ranks. Because of it, we failed to stop the Everstorm. But that was just the trial run, the sparring before the real fight. To face the Desolation, I will find a way to do what my ancestor the Sunmaker failed to do through conquest. I will unify Roshar.”
Kalami gasped softly. No man had ever united the entire continent— not during the Shin invasions, not during the height of the Hierocracy, not during the Sunmaker’s conquest. This was his task, he was increasingly certain. The enemy would unleash his worst terrors: the Unmade and the Voidbringers. That phantom champion in the dark armor.
Dalinar would resist them with a unified Roshar. Such a shame he hadn’t found a way to somehow convince Sadeas to join in his cause.
Ah, Torol, he thought. What we could have done together, if we hadn’t been so divided.…
“Father?” A soft voice drew his attention. Renarin, who stood beside Shallan and Adolin. “You didn’t mention us. Me and Brightness Shallan. What is our task?”
“To practice,” Dalinar said. “Other Radiants will be coming to us, and you two will need to lead them. The knights were once our greatest weapon against the Voidbringers. They will need to be so again.”
“Father, I…” Renarin stumbled over the words. “It’s just… Me? I can’t. I don’t know how to… let alone…”
“Son,” Dalinar said, stepping over. He took Renarin by the shoulder. “I trust you. The Almighty and the spren have granted you powers to defend and protect this people. Use them. Master them, then report back to me what you can do. I think we’re all curious to find out.”
Renarin exhaled softly, then nodded.
Chapter 3
Momentum
THIRTY-FOUR YEARS AGO
Rockbuds crunched like skulls beneath Dalinar’s boots as he charged across the burning field. His elites pounded after him, a handpicked force of soldiers both lighteyed and dark. They weren’t an honor guard. Dalinar didn’t need guards. These were simply the men he considered competent enough not to embarrass him.
Around him, rockbuds smoldered. Moss—dried from the summer heat and long days between storms this time of year—flared up in waves, setting the rockbud shells alight. Flamespren danced among them. And, like a spren himself, Dalinar charged through the smoke, trusting in his padded armor and thick boots to protect him.
The enemy—pressed on the north by his armies—had pulled back into this town just ahead. With some difficulty Dalinar had waited, so he could bring his elites in as a flanking force.
He hadn’t expected the enemy to fire this plain, desperately burning their own crops to block the southern approach. Well, the fires could go to Damnation. Though some of his men were overwhelmed by the smoke or heat, most stayed with him. They’d crash into the enemy, pressing them back against the main army.
Hammer and anvil. His favorite kind of tactic: the type that didn’t allow his enemies to get away from him.
As Dalinar burst from the smoky air, he found a few lines of spearmen hastily forming ranks on the southern edge of the town. Anticipationspren— like red streamers growing from the ground and whipping in the wind— clustered around them. The low town wall had been torn down in a contest a few years back, so the soldiers had only rubble as a fortification—though a large ridge to the east made a natural windbreak against the storms, which had allowed this place to sprawl almost like a real city.
Dalinar bellowed at the enemy soldiers, beating his sword—just an ordinary longsword—against his shield. He wore a sturdy breastplate, an openfronted helm, and iron-reinforced boots. The spearmen ahead of him wavered as his elites roared from amid the smoke and flame, shouting a bloodthirsty cacophony.
A few of the spearmen dropped their weapons and ran. Dalinar grinned. He didn’t need Shards to intimidate.
He hit the spearmen like a boulder rolling through a grove of saplings, his sword tossing blood into the air. A good fight was about momentum. Don’t stop. Don’t think. Drive forward and convince your enemies that they’re as good as dead already. That way, they’ll fight you less as you send them to their pyres.
The spearmen thrust their spears frantically—less to try to kill, more to try to push away this madman. Their ranks collapsed as too many of them turned their attention toward him.
Dalinar laughed, slamming aside a pair of spears with his shield, then disemboweling one man with a blade deep in the gut. The man dropped his spear in agony, and his neighbors backed away at the horrific sight. Dalinar came in with a roar, killing them with a sword that bore their friend’s blood.
Dalinar’s elites struck the now-broken line, and the real slaughter began. He pushed forward, keeping momentum, shearing through the ranks until he reached the back, then breathed deeply and wiped ashen sweat from his face. A young spearman wept on the ground nearby, screaming for his mother as he crawled across the stone, trailing blood. Fearspren mixed with orange, sinewy painspren all around. Dalinar shook his head and rammed his sword down into the boy’s back as he passed.
Men often cried for their parents as they died. Didn’t matter how old they were. He’d seen greybeards do it, same as kids like this one. He’s not much younger than me, Dalinar thought. Maybe seventeen. But then, Dalinar had never felt young, regardless of his age.
His elites carved the enemy line in two. Dalinar danced, shaking off his bloodied blade, feeling alert, excited, but not yet alive. Where was it?
Come on.…
A larger group of enemy soldiers was jogging down the street toward him, led by several officers in white and red. From the way they suddenly pulled up, he guessed they were alarmed to find their spearmen falling so quickly.
Dalinar charged. His elites knew to watch, so he was quickly joined by fifty men—the rest had to finish off the unfortunate spearmen. Fifty would do. The crowded confines of the town would mean Dalinar shouldn’t need more.
He focused his attention on the one man riding a horse. The fellow wore plate armor obviously meant to resemble Shardplate, though it was only of common steel. It lacked the beauty, the power, of true Plate. He still looked like he was the most important person around. Hopefully that would mean he was the best.
The man’s honor guard rushed to engage, and Dalinar felt something stir inside him. Like a thirst, a physical need.
Challenge. He needed a challenge!
He engaged the first member of the guard, attacking with a swift brutality. Fighting on a battlefield wasn’t like dueling in an arena; Dalinar didn’t dance around the fellow, testing his abilities. Out here, that sort of thing got you stabbed in the back by someone else. Instead, Dalinar slammed his sword down against the enemy, who raised his shield to block. Dalinar struck a series of quick, powerful blows, like a drummer pounding out a furious beat. Bam, bam, bam, bam!
The enemy soldier clutched his shield over his head, leaving Dalinar squarely in control. Dalinar raised his own shield before him and shoved it against the man, forcing him back until he stumbled, giving Dalinar an opening.
This man didn’t get a chance to cry for his mother.
The body dropped before him. Dalinar let his elites handle the others; the way was open to the brightlord. Who was he? The highprince fought to the north. Was this some other important lighteyes? Or… didn’t Dalinar remember hearing something about a son during Gavilar’s endless planning meetings?
Well, this man certainly looked grand on that white mare, watching the battle from within his helm’s visor, cape streaming around him. The foe raised his sword to his helm toward Dalinar in a sign of challenge accepted.
Idiot.
Dalinar raised his shield arm and pointed, counting on at least one of his strikers to have stayed with him. Indeed, Jenin stepped up, unhooked the shortbow from his back, and—as the brightlord shouted his surprise— shot the horse in the chest.
“Hate shooting horses,” Jenin grumbled as the beast reared in pain. “Like throwing a thousand broams into the storming ocean, Brightlord.”
“I’ll buy you two when we finish this,” Dalinar said as the brightlord tumbled off his horse. Dalinar dodged around flashing hooves and squeals of pain, seeking out the fallen man. He was pleased to find the enemy rising.
They engaged, sweeping at one another, frantic. Life was about momentum. Pick a direction and don’t let anything—man or storm—turn you aside. Dalinar battered at the brightlord, driving him backward, furious and persistent.
He felt like he was winning the contest, controlling it, right up until he slammed his shield at the enemy and—in the moment of stress—felt something snap. One of the straps that held the shield to his arm had broken.
The enemy reacted immediately. He shoved the shield, twisting it around Dalinar’s arm, snapping the other strap. The shield tumbled free.
Dalinar staggered, sweeping with his sword, trying to parry a blow that didn’t come. The brightlord instead lunged in close and rammed Dalinar with his shield.
Dalinar ducked the blow that followed, but the backhand hit him solidly on the side of the head, sending him stumbling. His helm twisted, bent metal biting into his scalp, drawing blood. He saw double, his vision swimming.
He’s coming in for the kill.
Dalinar roared, swinging his blade up in a lurching, wild parry that connected with the brightlord’s weapon and swept it completely out of his hands.
The man instead punched Dalinar in the face with a gauntlet. His nose crunched.
Dalinar fell to his knees, sword slipping from his fingers. His foe was breathing deeply, cursing between breaths, winded by the short, frantic contest. He reached to his belt for a knife.
An emotion stirred inside Dalinar.
It was a fire that filled the pit within. It washed through him and awakened him, bringing clarity. The sounds of his elites fighting the brightlord’s honor guard faded, metal on metal becoming clinks, grunts becoming merely a distant humming.
Dalinar smiled. Then the smile became a toothy grin. His vision returned as the brightlord—knife in hand—looked up and started, stumbling back. He seemed horrified.
Dalinar roared, spitting blood and throwing himself at the enemy. The swing that came at him seemed pitiful and Dalinar ducked it, ramming his shoulder against his foe’s lower body. Something thrummed inside Dalinar, the pulse of the battle, the rhythm of killing and dying.
The Thrill.
He knocked his opponent off balance, then went searching for his sword. Dym, however, hollered Dalinar’s name and tossed him a poleaxe, with a hook on one side and a broad, thin axe blade on the other. Dalinar seized it from the air and spun, hooking the brightlord around the ankle with the axehead, then yanked.
The brightlord fell in a clatter of steel. Before Dalinar could capitalize on this, two men of the honor guard managed to extricate themselves from Dalinar’s men and come to the defense of their brightlord.
Dalinar swung and buried the axehead into one guard’s side. He ripped it free and spun again—smashing the weapon down on the rising brightlord’s helm and sending him to his knees—before coming back and barely catching the remaining guard’s sword on the haft of the poleaxe.
Dalinar pushed upward, holding the poleaxe in two hands, sweeping the guard’s blade into the air over his head. Dalinar stepped forward until he was face-to-face with the fellow. He could feel the man’s breath.
He spat blood draining from his nose into the guard’s eyes, then kicked him in the stomach. He turned toward the brightlord, who was trying to flee. Dalinar growled, full of the Thrill. He swung the poleaxe with one hand, hooking the spike into the brightlord’s side, and yanked, dropping him yet again.
The brightlord rolled over. He was greeted by the sight of Dalinar slamming his poleaxe down with both hands, driving the spike right through the breastplate and into his chest. It made a satisfying crunch, and Dalinar pulled it out bloodied.
As if that blow had been a signal, the honor guard finally broke before his elites. Dalinar grinned as he watched them go, gloryspren popping up around him as glowing golden spheres. His men unhooked shortbows and shot a good dozen of the fleeing enemy in the back. Damnation, it felt good to best a force larger than your own.
Nearby, the fallen brightlord groaned softly. “Why…” the man said from within his helm. “Why us?”
“Don’t know,” Dalinar said, tossing the poleaxe back to Dym.
“You… you don’t know?” the dying man said.
“My brother chooses,” Dalinar said. “I just go where he points me.” He gestured toward the dying man, and Dym rammed a sword into the armored man’s armpit, finishing the job. The fellow had fought reasonably well; no need to extend his suffering.
Another soldier approached, handing Dalinar his sword. It had a chip the size of a thumb right in the blade. Looked like it had bent as well. “You’re supposed to stick it into the squishy parts, Brightlord,” Dym said, “not pound it against the hard parts.”
“I’ll keep that in mind,” Dalinar said, tossing the sword aside as one of his men selected a replacement from among the fallen.
“You… all right, Brightlord?” Dym asked.
“Never been better,” Dalinar said, voice faintly distorted by the clogged nose. Hurt like Damnation itself, and he drew a small flock of painspren— like little sinewy hands—up from the ground.
His men formed up around him, and Dalinar led the way farther down the street. Before too long, he could make out the bulk of the enemy still fighting ahead, harried by his army. He halted his men, considering his options.
Thakka, captain of the elites, turned to him. “Orders, sir?”
“Raid those buildings,” Dalinar said, pointing at a line of homes. “Let’s see how well they fight while they watch us rounding up their families.”
“The men will want to loot,” Thakka said.
“What is there to loot in hovels like these? Soggy hogshide and old rockbud bowls?” He pulled off his helm to wipe the blood from his face. “They can loot afterward. Right now I need hostages. There are civilians somewhere in this storming town. Find them.”
Thakka nodded, shouting the orders. Dalinar reached for some water. He’d need to meet up with Sadeas, and—
Something slammed into Dalinar’s shoulder. He caught only a brief sight of it, a black blur that hit with the force of a roundhouse kick. It threw him down, and pain flared up from his side.
He blinked as he found himself lying on the ground. A storming arrow sprouted from his right shoulder, with a long, thick shaft. It had gone straight through the chain mail, just to the side of where his cuirass met his arm.
“Brightlord!” Thakka said, kneeling, shielding Dalinar with his body. “Kelek! Brightlord, are you—”
“Who in Damnation shot that?” Dalinar demanded.
“Up there,” one of his men said, pointing at the ridge above the town.
“That’s got to be over three hundred yards,” Dalinar said, shoving Thakka aside and standing. “That can’t—”
He was watching, so he was able to jump out of the way of the next arrow, which dropped a mere foot from him, cracking against the stone ground. Dalinar stared at it, then started shouting. “Horses! Where are the storming horses!”
A small group of soldiers came trotting forward, bringing all eleven horses, which they’d guided carefully across the field. Dalinar had to dodge another arrow as he seized the reins of Fullnight, his black gelding, and heaved himself into the saddle. The arrow in his arm was a cutting pain, but he felt something more pressing drawing him forward. Helping him focus.
He galloped back the way they’d come in, getting out of the archer’s sight, trailed by ten of his best men. There had to be a way up that slope.… There! A rocky set of switchbacks, shallow enough that he didn’t mind running Fullnight up them.
Dalinar worried that by the time he reached the top, his quarry would have escaped. However, when he eventually burst onto the top of the ridge, an arrow slammed into his left breast, going straight through the breastplate near the shoulder, nearly throwing him from the saddle.
Damnation! Dalinar hung on somehow, clenching the reins in one hand, and leaned low, peering ahead as the archer—still a distant figure—stood upon a rocky knob and launched another arrow. And another. Storms, the fellow was quick!
He jerked Fullnight to one side, then the other, feeling the thrumming sense of the Thrill surge within him. It drove away the pain, let him focus.
Ahead, the archer finally seemed to grow alarmed, and leaped from his perch to flee.
Dalinar charged Fullnight over that knob a moment later. The archer turned out to be a man in his twenties wearing rugged clothing, with arms and shoulders that looked like they could have lifted a chull. Dalinar had the option of running him down, but instead galloped Fullnight past and kicked the man in the back, sending him sprawling.
He pulled up his horse, the motion sending a spike of pain through his arm. He forced it down, eyes watering, and turned toward the archer, who lay in a heap amid spilled black arrows.
Dalinar lurched from the saddle, an arrow sprouting from each shoulder, as his men caught up. He seized the archer and hauled the fellow to his feet, noting the blue tattoo on his cheek. The archer gasped and stared at Dalinar. He expected he was quite a sight, covered in soot from the fires, his face a mask of blood from the nose and the cut scalp, stuck with not one but two arrows.
“You waited until my helm was off,” Dalinar demanded. “You are an assassin. You were set here specifically to kill me.”
The man winced, then nodded.
“Amazing!” Dalinar said, letting go of the fellow. “Show me that shot again. How far is that, Thakka? I’m right, aren’t I? Over three hundred yards?”
“Almost four,” Thakka said, pulling over his horse. “But with a height advantage.”
“Still,” Dalinar said, stepping up to the lip of the ridge. He looked back at the befuddled archer. “Well? Grab your bow!”
“My… bow?” the archer said.
“Are you deaf, man?” Dalinar snapped. “Go get it!”
The archer regarded the ten elites on horseback, grim-faced and dangerous, before wisely deciding to obey. He picked up an arrow, then his bow—which was made of a sleek black wood Dalinar didn’t recognize.
“Went right through my storming armor,” Dalinar muttered, feeling at the arrow that had hit him on the left. That one didn’t seem too bad—it had punctured the steel, but had lost most of its momentum in doing so. The one on his right, though, had cut through the chain and was sending blood down his arm.
He shook his head, shading his eyes with his left hand, inspecting the battlefield. To his right, the armies clashed, and his main body of elites had come up to press at the flank. The rearguard had found some civilians and was shoving them into the street.
“Pick a corpse,” Dalinar said, pointing toward an empty square where a skirmish had happened. “Stick an arrow in one down there, if you can.”
The archer licked his lips, still seeming confused. Finally, he took a spyglass off his belt and studied the area. “The one in blue, near the overturned cart.”
Dalinar squinted, then nodded. Nearby, Thakka had climbed off his horse and had slid out his sword, resting it on his shoulder. A not-so-subtle warning. The archer drew his bow and launched a single black-fletched arrow. It flew true, sticking into the chosen corpse.
A single awespren burst around Dalinar, like a ring of blue smoke. “Stormfather! Thakka, before today, I’d have bet you half the princedom that such a shot wasn’t possible.” He turned to the archer. “What’s your name, assassin?”
The man raised his chin, but didn’t reply.
“Well, in any case, welcome to my elites,” Dalinar said. “Someone get the fellow a horse.”
“What?” the archer said. “I tried to kill you!”
“Yes, from a distance. Which shows remarkably good judgment. I can make use of someone with your skills.”
“We’re enemies!”
Dalinar nodded toward the town below, where the beleaguered enemy army was—at long last—surrendering. “Not anymore. Looks like we’re all allies now!”
The archer spat to the side. “Slaves beneath your brother, the tyrant.”
Dalinar let one of his men help him onto his horse. “If you’d rather be killed, I can respect that. Alternatively, you can join me and name your price.”
“The life of my brightlord Yezriar,” the archer said. “The heir.”
“Is that the fellow… ?” Dalinar said, looking to Thakka.
“. . . That you killed down below? Yes, sir.”
“He’s got a hole in his chest,” Dalinar said, looking back to the assassin. “Tough break.”
“You… you monster! Couldn’t you have captured him?”
“Nah. The other princedoms are digging in their heels. Refuse to recognize my brother’s crown. Games of catch-me with the high lighteyes just encourage people to fight back. If they know we’re out for blood, they’ll think twice.” Dalinar shrugged. “How about this? Join with me, and we won’t pillage the town. What’s left of it, anyway.”
The man looked down at the surrendering army.
“You in or not?” Dalinar said. “I promise not to make you shoot anyone you like.”
“I…”
“Great!” Dalinar said, turning his horse and trotting off.
A short time later, when Dalinar’s elites rode up to him, the sullen archer was on a horse with one of the other men. The pain surged in Dalinar’s right arm as the Thrill faded, but it was manageable. He’d need surgeons to look at the arrow wound.
Once they reached the town again, he sent orders to stop the looting. His men would hate that, but this town wasn’t worth much anyway. The riches would come once they started into the centers of the princedoms.
He let his horse carry him in a leisurely gait through the town, passing soldiers who had settled down to water themselves and rest from the protracted engagement. His nose still smarted, and he had to forcibly prevent himself from snorting up blood. If it was well and truly broken, that wouldn’t turn out well for him.
Dalinar kept moving, fighting off the dull sense of… nothingness that often followed a battle. This was the worst time. He could still remember being alive, but now had to face a return to mundanity.
He’d missed the executions. Sadeas already had the local highprince’s head—and those of his officers—up on spears. Such a showman, Sadeas was. Dalinar passed the grim line, shaking his head, and heard a muttered curse from his new archer. He’d have to talk to the man, reinforce that in striking at Dalinar earlier, he’d shot an arrow at an enemy. That was to be respected. If he tried something against Dalinar or Sadeas now, it would be different. Thakka would already be searching out the fellow’s family.
“Dalinar?” a voice called.
He stilled his horse, turning toward the sound. Torol Sadeas—resplendent in golden yellow Shardplate that had already been washed clean—pushed through a cluster of officers. The red-faced young man looked far older than he had a year ago. When they’d started all this, he’d still been gangly youth. No longer.
“Dalinar, are those arrows? Stormfather, man, you look like a thornbush! What happened to your face?”
“A fist,” Dalinar said, then nodded toward the heads on spears. “Nice work.”
“We lost the crown prince,” Sadeas said. “He’ll mount a resistance.”
“That would be impressive,” Dalinar said, “considering what I did to him.”
Sadeas relaxed visibly. “Oh, Dalinar. What would we do without you?”
“Lose. Someone get me something to drink and a pair of surgeons. In that order. Also, Sadeas, I promised we wouldn’t pillage the city. No looting, no slaves taken.”
“You what?” Sadeas demanded. “Who did you promise?”
Dalinar thumbed over his shoulder at the archer.
“Another one?” Sadeas said with a groan.
“He’s got amazing aim,” Dalinar said. “Loyal, too.” He glanced to the side, where Sadeas’s soldiers had rounded up some weeping women for Sadeas to pick from.
“I was looking forward to tonight,” Sadeas noted.
“And I was looking forward to breathing through my nose. We’ll live. More than can be said for the kids we fought today.”
“Fine, fine,” Sadeas said, sighing. “I suppose we could spare one town. A symbol that we are not without mercy.” He looked over Dalinar again. “We need to get you some Shards, my friend.”
“To protect me?”
“Protect you? Storms, Dalinar, at this point I’m not certain a rockslide could kill you. No, it just makes the rest of us look bad when you accomplish what you do while practically unarmed!”
Dalinar shrugged. He didn’t wait for the wine or the surgeons, but instead led his horse back to gather his elites and reinforce the orders to guard the city from looting. Once finished, he walked his horse across smoldering ground to his camp.
He was done living for the day. It would be weeks, maybe months, before he got another opportunity.
Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book 3 copyright © 2017 Dragonsteel Entertainment, LLC
Squee!!!
Ok, one question answered immediately. Oathbringer, like The Way of Kings and Word of Radiance, references an in-world book.
Adolin! This is a happy day. I had not expected to read Adolin so soon in the book… words on the street had it he wasn’t getting any viewpoint until the very end of the book. This was… a pleasant surprise. So he is coping by over-working himself: I expected something along those lines.
I have to say… I nearly choked in laughter in seeing everyone just: “You know, good riddance Sadeas is dead, we all hated him.” or good old Teft: “Maybe he tripped and stabbed himself on his own knife.” or Dalinar “So you all agree?”. Everyone: “Yep. Good thing he is dead.”.
More later when I have more time.
YEEEES HYPE HYPE HYPE HYPE (Sorry, couldn’t resist commenting before reading :D )
Shin Invasions!!? Weren’t they supposed to be a peaceful people?
Also, I have a foreboding feeling about Dalinar finding Odium’s champion’s eyes familiar. They might just be reminding him of the Void-Listeners, or his younger self. I really hope this isn’t implying that Adolin will end up being Odium’s champion.
Finally, it’s really cool that boding the Stormfather has given Dalinar full control over his visions. I look forward to learning what all he is capable of, and what Renarin can do as a Truthwatcher.
Am I the only one afraid that Adolin might become Odium’s champion? Or at least a major villain?
It looks like we may get the whole prologue to the in-universe Oathbringer, sentence by sentence, like we did with The Letter … can’t wait to find out what it says and who wrote it.
It’s good to see that Dalinar and the Stormfather are already on better terms; he can talk to him in his rooms without having to hike up to the roof and shout.
Awesome! Though I was hoping we’d get some more of Kaladin, I want to know what happens after that preview we got last year. Maybe next week :D
@7 I’m storming terrified of it.
So did Dalinar actually see Odium?
Oh, Dalinar, you still think Sadeas would have been a net benefit? Keep this up and we might start calling you Eddard.
So how are the Diagraminions going to respond to Dalinar’s new plan? Can Taranvagian recognize that it’s the unity that’s important rather than him being in charge of it? Can Dalinar? Are they going to split the continent between them?
Chapter 1
Ok, so now we know that the Unmade are directly connected to Odium, and unlike the Voidbringers, they reside on Roshar all the time. We know of how many? Two? The one who brings the Thrill, and the one who brings the Death Rattles. The Nightwatcher is not one, she’s connected to Cultivation, correct?
Oathbringer appears to be a book Dalinar himself is writing (well, Navani is surely the one writing it, but Dalinar is dictating?)
Chapter 2
Thoughts as I’m reading… Adolin’s murder of Sadeas puts him in danger from the Skybreakers, one would think.
Squires, huh? What sort of powers do they get? Just the healing? If the Lopen doesn’t get to fly, how will he pick up women?
Shin Invasion? Say whaaaa? Need more info on that nugget of history.
Chapter 3
Its interesting that the Thrill has been described (both here and previously) as a “rhythm”. Sort of like the Parshendi rhythms. And we found out in Arcanum Unbounded that both the Parshendi and a bunch of kinds of spren, are Native to Roshar and predate the coming of Honor and Cultivation. It makes me wonder if the Unmade were native spren whom Odium corrupted.
God, I love Dalinar recruiting and assassin who jus tried to kill him. How very Thrawn-like of him.
@10:
The Diagram specifically predicts Dalinar as a potential “rival” for Taravangian in uniting the continent. That’s why they tried to have him killed. So, no, i don’t think this will change anything for them.
Does Dalinar have the authority to name Aladar and Sebarial as Highprinces of Information and Commerce? Or is this another of those times where he usurps the king’s authority and doesn’t notice? I’m assuming it’s the later, though I could see how being Highprince of War, during wartime and with the king absent, could let this be legitimate.
I think Adolin becoming Odium’s champion is a good guess, but will ultimately be wrong. I think anything that is our first instinct, was probably Brandon’s first instinct as well, and he would have worked beyond his first instinct for something this important.
Is it understood that Odium’s champion will have the voidsurges or whatever the voidspren grant an what do you speculate they may be like?
@13:
He’s absolutely usurping the King’s authority. But lets be real, his new goal is to unite all nations behind himself. Not behind Elohkar.
Wait? 9 unmade? I had assumed there were 10, since symmetry seems like such a big thing on roshar. Did one die? Will one become Oduim’s champion? Was one of them bound into the gem referenced in the prologue?
hmmm….
From the red eyes alone, I’m guessing Eshonai as Odium’s champion. Think how tragic it would be, she’s leading the enemy forces, screaming in her head the entire time. Somewhat like the end of WoR, but worse.
If it’s Adolin, I’ll be sorely disappointed. I want him to reawaken his blade and become an Edgedancer, not a villain.
@17: 10 is an important number on Roshar, but 9 is the important number for Braize, where Odium is. So 9 Unmade makes sense.
Had it been confirmed in a WoB that a dead Blade can be Awakened?
Not at all. Well, he said it would be really hard.
But with how Adolin talks to his blade, and treats it as though it’s alive, it seems if anybody can do it, it’s him.
@19 I believe it’s theoretically possible but very difficult.
ETA: @20 The narrative groundwork does appear to be there for Adolin.
@16 Treating Elohkar as a subordinate might make Dalinar’s project easier. Uniting pre-existing polities is easier if you aren’t replacing the existing rulers or forcing them to be subordinate to their rival. Alethkar is just the first vassal-kingdom of the Urithiru Empire.
@19,
Yes, I don’t have the quote to hand but apparently it is possible although it is very difficult.
My understanding is that only the Knight who foreswore his or her Oath could reawaken the blade. That’s why it would be difficult… they are all dead. So, unless one managed to stay alive since the Recreance…
@18:
Where do we learn about the connection between the number 9 and the planet Braize?
3. a. Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharian start system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar’s moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.
A. Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharian system.
3. b. The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the Cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?
A. Big RAFO
3. c. Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?
A. Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharian planetary system…wait Braize is 9-centric
The potential parallels between Dalinar and Rand Al’Thor is starting to make me worried due to Sanderson’s genre savvy. He’s not likely to leave a trope unchallenged, or at least unexamined. Either it’s going to be way easier than expected–no nation by nation conquest but a quick and panicky confederation–or impossible–because T got there first or the Unmade or something else that makes bringing the nations together impossible.
Well, to put my theorycrafting hat on…
Shardblades are physical objects, that have cognitive aspects as well–they’re spren (cognitive beings) pulled nearly fully into the physical realm. So they have physical properties, yet slice through things in an unnatural fashion. This is normally a temporary state, but since the bond that allows the spren to enter the physical realm was broken they’re trapped. Not quite dead, just a very deep suspended animation.
Obviously, the one who originally held the bond would have the best chance at recreating it, but they’re all dead.
Spren can be captured and held in gemstones–this is the basis behind fabrials and was even used for parshendi bonding/transformation. In this case, the spren isn’t in a gemstone, but the principle might carry over a bit. Adolin speaking the first Ideal may enable him to reawaken the blade.
@7: Nah, he’s probably a Dustbringer, or something similar
@18 RE: Red Eyes
From what we see in Dalinar’s visions, everything that has been possessed by a voidspren has red eyes. The shadow creature in the water had red eyes, all the Stormform Parshendi have red eyes.
I really do love reading about young, arrogant Dalinar. Such a change from the man we know, but you can see the same sort of character traits that present day Dalinar still has. Plus he just cracks me up. His interactions with the assassin were great.
I also think it’s interesting how in each book, Dalinar seems to get more and more ok with taking power for himself. Literally no mention of Elhokar in his directives or speech about uniting the world, and with his “I will unify Roshar,” it’s pretty clear he’s ready to take lead in this. I’m curious how his interactions with Elhokar will be once he arrives to Urithiru.
@30:
Elhokar is already there. He came with The Lopen. Dalinar thinks that the King won’t come down to see Sadeas’ body, because he’s still recovering.
@28 He’s more likely an Edgedancer, since that’s the type of Shardblade he has. None of the other dead Shardblades have an order associated with them, but his grows from vines and is confirmed by WoB to be an Edgedancer blade. Of course, that’s assuming that he manages to awaken the blade; otherwise it wouldn’t matter.
@32:
I thought a lot of the blades got descriptions that would reveal what kind of spren they had been?
@33 Adolin’s blade was more in the way it was summoned, rather than a description of the blade itself. When summoned, it forms as a series of vines before snapping into the blade shape. IIRC, the other blades pretty much just coalesce.
@11, there’s a theory that Cusicesh is or contains another Unmade (the Black Fisher specifically).
@31 whoops, yeah you’re right -guess I was overly excited for this and read it too fast haha. That makes me even more wary of the progression of their relationship -it’s one thing to take charge to this extent when Elhokar is missing, another to do it when he’s just recovering in the building. Maybe when Elhokar arrived he left Dalinar in charge, but still, I have a feeling Dalinar’s newfound sense of purpose is going to cause a rift between himself and the King. And probably Navani too.
@10 What makes you think it is by Dalinar?
My first impression is that it is by either a member of the Knights Radiant post Recreance or one of the Heralds (though I can’t imagine which one that would be). But those are just wild guesses based on the title of the book and records that many might wish not to exist.
@37:
Ok, so those were just thoughts I jotted down while reading. So, its a totally guess, obviously. We only have three complete sentences. But, then we saw that Dalinar had control of the visions and could call them up at will. I’m thinking its a record of his visions, a real one, with his thoughts, etc. Reading the first chapter header, and connecting it with him doing a deeper search through the visions (which seems to be the point of that first chapter) led me to interpret it that way.
Those who will find it threatening: The Vorin church. Those who may feel liberated by it: athiests like Jasnah. Most who will feel like it shouldn’t exist: Almost everyone else, including many of his closest allies.
I also can’t imagine that he named his sword Oathbringer, and then after tearing through all of those books, we don’t get a mention of a book named Oathbringer prior to this. Seems like Dalinar would have had that read to him, and if it was important, he would have mentioned it before. And it stretches credulity too much that he names his sword the same name as a book they discover in Eurithiru. Simplest explanation? Dalinar writes the book. Names it the same as his sword.
There’s also the fact that I think Dalinar will at least TRY to write a convincing treatise to unite the continent, as he suggested that Nohadon should do in the visions.
@38 Unless someone else named the sword after the book. Otherwise, it seems like a decent argument for Dalinar as the author. I think it’s more than his visions or a record of recent events, neither of which seem worthy of the opening line.
@38 Did Dalinar name Oathbringer? Or was the name inherited from previous owners?
I think in Vorin culture, the statement the almighty is dead and he never existed might elicit those responses
@41
Good question. I made an assumption. I assumed people who named the swords renamed them when they got them. Adolin chose not to name his sword.
On Dalinar, His Visions and Odium’s Champion
I would advise caution. Even if Dalinar did recognize the champion, even if it indeed is Adolin as many are suggesting, we still have to bear in mind the future it depicts may never happen. We can be sure if Dalinar ever starts to think his son would be trapped into fighting for the enemy (trapped as I do not believe one minute Adolin would purposefully do this), he would do all he can to prevent it from happening.
It may just be one of many futures. I too would be soerely disappointed if Brandon were to use Adolin’s character as an antagonist. I would find it very… OOC.
@28: I absolutely do not buy the Dustbringer theory: I find it completely out of character. It also doesn’t nearly begin to form the most interesting path for Adolin’s character. This is one theory which exists for the wrong reasons, I believe.
Also yes, for those wondering, Adolin’s Blade is confirmed to be an Edgedancer’s Blade. Yes, it has also been confirmed it would be possible to re-awaken a dead-Blade if the right oaths are said and if “something else” happens, but Brandon highlighted it wouldn’t work in most cases and it also is extraordinarily difficult.
@44 Dalinar thinks he saw Odium’s champion but the Stormfather didn’t mention the champion. The shadows make me think it might be Odium or at least a Sliver/Splinter (whatever the term is).
I think Dalinar might be misinterpreting his vision again.
Here’s my question on the unmade: could they be the corrupted essences of the nine traitorous Heralds?
From the Stormlight Archive Wiki:
The Heralds were once men and women, though they’ve died many times and are now what are known as Cognitive Shadows. They are not Shards, like Honor. In local religions, they’re more like saints than gods.
Eventually, following a victory in yet another Desolation and weighed down by the prospect of millennia of torture, nine Heralds chose to abandon their self-appointed burden, hoping that Talenel’Elin might be enough to uphold the Oathpact. They told the people that mankind had finally won; thus, the event was known for the past 4,500 years as the Last Desolation or Aharietiam in Vorinism.
Lift might have it right when she calls Naln “Darkness”.
I saw the header of Ch. 1 as kinda leaning on the 4th wall. The other 2 books are named after in-universe texts that were given titles early. (WoR was initially Book of Endless Pages, a book Shallan was given in WoK) Then there was some outcry about this one named for Dalinar’s sword. Then the first excerpt from the now real book Oathbringer is “Most of you will think this book should not exist.” Pretty funny, I think.
So… what happened to Oathbringer? Anyone notice that? I don’t think Adolin took it…
@48: Adolin pushed it off the edge, and it fell down to one of the garden terraces, into a bush.
2 Chapters in Urithuru and a flashback scene; nice! A lot to potentially unwrap here:
-Totally cool that Dalinar can now treat his visions like a movie and replay them whenever he wants. Smart move to switch vantage points too.
-I think Odium’s champion will *not* be the obvious choices (Adolin, Eshonai, etc).
-Sadeas’s body is discovered, and everyone (other than Sadeas’s men) is all, “good riddance!” (I love Palona!)
-New Highprinces of Information and of Commerce? Definitely a good choice on the Commerce position; let’s wait and see about the Information post.
-Longer Dalinar flashback chapter than what’s been released before. One thing that stands out: Dalinar may be a terror on the battlefield, but he’s pragmatic and not overly exploitative or cruel once the battle is over. Sadeas, on the other hand, comes across as evil, exploitative and repulsive. It’s not hard to see how they grew to become the men that we’ve witnessed the previous 2 books.
But this bit regarding Renarin definitely caught my eye:
Ha! If that isn’t Brandon winking at the reader, I tell ya! We have been waiting 3 years to see what Renarin’s abilities are (and for some of us, to receive actual proof of what he is); “curious” doesn’t even begin to cover it! Very nicely done, Brandon!
I am pretty sure that the episode that brought Dalinar his “Blackthorn” moniker is something that allegedly happened with Genghis Khan – though in his case it was only one arrow. IIRC, it is part of his Mongol biography – which remained oral and secret for a long time and may be more a collection of legends than fact, but still.
Also, it is easy to see how Sadeas could have been a loyal friend then – they were both addicted to the Thrill, Dalinar almost to the exclusion of everything else, though there are some glimpses of fair and generous nature buried deep inside, but he somehow recovered later, while Sadeas never did. IIRC he even thought to himself that he would have followed the Blackthorn, but Dalinar had ceased being that person (thankfully). And of course, even in this early chapter Torol is obliquely shown to be a rapist.
I really hope that Odium’s champion is neither Eshonai nor Adolin, but we shall see.
RoyanRanndeos @46:
Weren’t the Unmade around _before_ Heralds broke their oaths? I am fairly certain that it was implied somewhere that they were.
BTW, I am betting that Aladar will discover Adolin’s culpability in Sadeas’s death – he seems like a pretty competent fellow.
So Shin used to be a warlike folk? Heh.
And 2 Highprinces stayed in the camps with their armies? I wonder what, if anything is left of them.
@48 and 49
But that does sound like a question someone should be asking, but isn’t. Shards are well-accounted for. And Sadeas got his in a very public spectacle. Everyone knows he has Oathbringer. Why isn’t anyone asking about it? At least “Hey, where’d it go?”
@8 Nazrax, @37 Sevinon
My first intuitive guess was Dalinar. I have nothing to found this on though. Pretty certain it’s one of the Kholin guys, though. Gut feeling?
@11, 14 Anthony Pero:
I asked Brandon on a Signing whether “something inside him snapped” meant him snapping. He said no. So, probably no sky-breaking yet.
I think Adolin becoming Odium’s champion is a good guess, but will ultimately be wrong. I think anything that is our first instinct, was probably Brandon’s first instinct as well, and he would have worked beyond his first instinct for something this important.
Unless, of course, he trusts on us dismissing our first instinct by figuring that he would have done the same, double-disguising us!
But worse – on the same signing I asked whether Glys was equally “of Cultivation” that Syl is of Honor. I tried to get anything out of him about Glys’ possible Voidyness. He RAFO’d me, though, so – I’m still concerned for Renarin. More so, now.
Especially with @44, Gepeto, mentioning Dalinar being all concerned for Adolin becoming Odium’s champion, I’m somewhat concerned that Renarin will be overlooked again, like it happened to him before. Dalinar literally looked for Radiants everywhere and failed to notice that his own son matched the bill…
Also: WAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!! /o/
There is a slight typo. May be in the book, or may be just in this.
“Either way, Dalinar’s lack of offi ers explained the room’s other occupants: Highprince Sebarial and his mistress, Palona.”
Kefka@52:
They did ask the question.
Huh. So they did. They got off it pretty quick, though.
Looks like the effect of a Windrunner’s combination of surges is the ability to grant basic surgebinding capabilities to those who follow him while within a specific radius of him. Awesome!!! I wonder if Renarin will be the one to see the truth of Adolin’s actions and what he’ll do about it. I like how Dalinar’s relationship with Stormfather is progressing. Seems like a bit of respect (grudgingly in Stormfather’s case) is forming.
From what I understand, each order has a certain special ability unconnected to the surges. Skybreakers can detect guilt or innocence. Squires are only ever mentioned in connection with the Windrunners, so that might be theirs.
IIRC, Oathbringer (the shardblade) was named by The Sunmaker, and not by Dalinar. My assumption has always been that the in-world book “Oathbringer” was written by The Sunmaker.
TOR, Brandon, everyone else evolved: thanks so much for doing this! What a rare treat!
@58 I seem to remember a statement imply other/all orders get Squires but the Windrunners get more.
@53: I never bought into the numerous “Adolin will become evil” theories. I just don’t see it within his character motivations to ever turn such a sharp turn: he isn’t envious nor jealous nor power hungry. It seems to be Adolin just wants to do the right thing while secretly hoping the right thing happens to be precisely what Dalinar wants. He is very centered on his family, so for him to betray them, it would take incentives I am unsure are even plausible. Being Odium’s champion will never be “right” per Adolin’s inner morality.
I have however often bought into the “Renarin or Elhokar will become evil” theories because I read them as characters eager to find they use, eager for power and not for the right reasons. Yes, impenetrable Renarin is self-centered on his desire to be useful, what if he ends up being the one manipulated by Odium? What if while Dalinar starts to actively worry about Adolin, it is Renarin who ultimately betrays him? I took note of Renarin not being happy at not eing given tasks… Useless, once again. Or so he thinks. Where is this going? I foresee practice sessions with Shallan through Shallan’s viewpoints. This will make some people happy.
As for Elhokar, this chapter doesn’t make him appear all too great. People have argued eating food with the Herdazians would mark the beginning of a “new Elhokar”. I have had my doubts and seems they were founded. He did not even bothered to come on the crime scene when one of his Highprinces was found dead. Not bothered. And no, he is not remotely injured enough to justify not showing up. Little wonder Dalinar, as always, assumed leadership and appoints new titles. He is definitely transgressing here and I hope to see a Dalinar being less and less bothered by his brother’s legacy (Elhokar) and more and more over what needs to be done.
Anyone think Adolin’s wrist will come into play? I took note of Brandon taking care of mentioning the injury which is still throbbing. He can’t spar. He can’t fight. Will Ialai demand the duel he promised Sadeas to be honored by having Adolin fight her champion? I mean, they will find out it was Adolin, soon. What will they do? Everyone is pleased, but it does not mean there won’t be any consequences and, so far, Adolin has dueled in all books. Will Oathbringer be the book where he loses one? Because of his wrist…?
I also noted how, after the first fight with Szeth, Adolin’s reaction was to stay up all night and over-work himself. Now he murdered a Highprince, he does practically the same. Where will it end? He will run out of wagons to inspect eventually, he can’t have something to do, all the time. He will be alone, at some point, then what?
And who gets accused? Dalinar’s men most likely which Dalinar himself doesn’t think much of beyond it being bad for his reputation, but when it turns out his son did it? Did anyone notice how Dalinar explains the killing blow is one generally use to kill/fight Shardbearers? This should narrow down the searches… I bet they find the erased marks on the wall next, then Oathbringer.
What makes you say that? We don’t have a clue regarding the extent of his injuries.
I did, I viewed it as irony, since thats not at all how the fight went down. He wasn’t trying to stab Sadeas in the eye specifically, and no Shardplate was involved. It was just what was available in the position they found themselves in.
Being an architecture junkie, I’m fascinated by the descriptions of Urithiru. It seems to be a lot larger than I originally imagined. For some reason, I had it in my head that it was a 100-story semicircle stepped pyramid, with each floor smaller than the one below it. However, this description says it is 10 tiers with 18 floors each, so it is more like a wedding cake, with each tier having a wide exterior space for crops. It also appears to be carved out of a mountain. The interior sounds more cave-like and twisty than I originally envisioned. I would love a drawing of it. And better yet, a floor plan. I’ll do a happy nerd dance if we get some drawings in the book.
@64, I think the implication is just that Sadeas was murdered by someone used to fighting on a battlefield, as opposed to an assassin.
@62 I’m not sure they’ll figure out it was Adolin. Without a precise time of death or an accurate time for when Adolin was out of sight, it may not be possible to disprove his alibi. A whole lot of people could have been out of contact for enough time to kill Sadeas. They may never formally accuse anyone. From the general lack of concern by Dalinar’s council, I think Sadeas’ wife will be the major source of complicating factors. She won’t need proof to start taking vengeance.
@65 Hopefully Nazh will oblige.
So are people just incompetent in searching the close environs for Oathbringer? Or did someone else take it?
@68:
Adolin seemed to think the blade would be safe there. But I think having it be missing would be more exciting, story-wise.
Re: Oathbringer (the Shardblade and the book) – I don’t think we should assume that the sword had no history before Dalinar wins it (in WoK, he mentions he gets it when he is 20 Weepings old). Sadeas coveted that specific sword, and even when he acquired it from Dalinar he didn’t rename it. So the name is likely significant.
More reflection on the flashback – After doublechecking WoR, Sadeas is (was) 50 in present day, which makes him about 16 here. What a horrible young man, who grows up to be more of the same.
@53 – Re: Odium’s Champion and Renarin constantly being overlooked – yes, this worries me greatly. Part of the reason I remain skeptical of Renarin really being a Truthwatcher (until we receive actual, objective evidence “on screen”) is that a foundation is seeming to be laid for him to be in Odium’s camp. The fact that Dalinar felt he saw something familiar in the champion’s eyes just adds to that. We have no idea what to expect from Renarin, and I maintain the reader should have a healthy dose of skepticism until more information is forthcoming.
@59 – (Dr. Who/River Song impression) “Spoilers!!” I don’t think that’s been stated in what has been released to date (not counting “The Thrill” from Unfettered II). Unless I’m wrong, we may want to mark that as such…
@38
After thinking about it some more I’m starting to agree with your thoughts on this being Dalinar writing about his visions and associated events. I was a bit hung up on the liberated part but the emphasis of “some few” seems to fit with the small selection of his inner circle that would feel that way. Given that, the whole context of Oathbringer being his treatise to try to convince the world of the imminent threat and the need to unite fits very nicely. Obviously the origin and choice of his blade’s name now takes on greater significance if he named it though it is still very possible that it had that name when he acquired it (it seems we’ll find out about it’s acquisition in one of the next few flashback scenes given all the talk of getting him shards in this one).
Dalinar is odium’s champion…
@68 – they don’t have to be incompetent, just ruled by their assumptions about the worth and value of a Shardblade. In a normal situation of such a death, to not take the sword is unthinkable. Thus, the default assumption is if the blade is not by the body, someone took it. No one would even think of looking down below on a different platform in a bush to see if perchance it got dropped.
These are of course important questions that would eventually be brought up in an investigation, particularly if someone were being tasked to find the culprit. In such a case then, finding the sword would show who had done it – kinda hard to hide a 6-foot blade for the days it takes to bond (though it can be done – see Dalinar in WoR), and it is at this point that hopefully a competent investigator would be interested in trying to see if it was hidden instead of taken.
But the death itself is more politically pressing in the moment for the people in this scene who would just assume that whoever did the deed took the blade. Having the Blade be missing (particularly in the book that bears its same name) looks like something that may become an interesting sub-plot (together with Adolin’s whole “I did it” thing) in the book as a whole. So, maybe someone did stumble on it and pick it up (I agree with Anthony @69 that this would be an exciting mystery) or maybe it is still in the bushes.
Oh Adolin! I missed you! I’m so glad you’re back! And that I saw you here already. I don’t have to wait until November.
I hate to say it, but I love the old Dalinar’s flippiant attitude, it’s great as a character. Of course new Dalinar is much cooler, but I’m definitely awaiting the Dalinar flashbacks more than I was the Shallan flashbacks
@59 and @70 – I believe the information referenced in 59 is from the Unfettered II chapters, and should be marked as spoiler for Oathbringer. It’s a mild spoiler, but spoiler nonetheless.
@75 Me too. It helps that Dalinar has questions in his past that we want answered right from the start. I never really cared about Shallan’s past, even knowing it, now, because she didn’t have a radical change in personality, she just became more.
Kaladin was a generally happy kid with bouts of depression, who we saw in the present day as a poster child for PTSD. What happened to screw him up that badly?
Dalinar was a violent borderline sociopath (who made freaking SADEAS seem like the reasonable one) who is now a calm, noble leader that rational people want to follow. Why change, when Sadeas didn’t?
Man…this is like listening to phish and not getting a jam. It’s all well and good but feed me the meat! I need some Kaladin!
Great start though. Very excited. Not sure if I love that this is available prior to the book but i’m in now and taking it to the end regardless. Thanks Brandon!
It it seems very cliche for the ‘champion’ of the enemy to be wearing black, with red eyes…
@45 I don’t think it would make much sense for Odium himself to be wearing shardplate.
@77 At the moment, the pivotal event appears to be the Assassination. Dalinar blamed himself for it so transformed himself but I think Sadeas blamed others. It seems too neat and tidy though, so the flashbacks will probably complicate things.
@79 It could be metaphorical shardplate :P
I’m personally of the opinion that Adolin will end up in whatever order does what they think is best for the whole, regardless of law or morals. Just the guy who gets things done. For Odium’s champion? I’m thinking Moash. He’s got the gear, the hatred (both externally and internally focused), a group to go with, and for some reason he just seems like the sort to get manipulated down the road.
@ALL – Please don’t make a Thing of reporting apparent typos from the pre-release chapters. Most of them will be copying artifacts and aren’t in the originals. At most, make note of them for yourself, and check your hard copy or ebook on November 14 before reporting it.
Thanks.
@63: Unless my memory serves me wrong, he was sitting at a table eating soup last we saw him. If he can sit, then he can most probably walk. He had a wound flesh on the stomach, if it wasn’t deep enough to cause worry for his life, then he is most likely able, one week after to walk. I mean, you are encouraged to walk 8h after a C-section and this is a full deep abdomen cut with partial anesthesia (which isn’t unthinkable to do): what Elholar got seems much lesser. Anyway, Dalinar thinks he ought to have come which means his injury is not that bad, just an excuse.
@64: It means the killing potentially has to be done by someone knowing how to kill a Shardbearer.
@67: They may not find enough clues, but Adolin himself is likely to speak up, eventually, especially if someone else is accused.
@69: They just assumed whoever killed Sadeas took Oathbringer. Why would they assume anything else?
@73: The commentary on how Sadeas’s soldiers lost their Highprince for a full day because of how confusing the tunnels are does lead to the idea they will think the culprit has just gone into hidding for the time required to bond Oathbringer. Unless Adolin comes clean or something ties him up to the murder, they are likely to endorse this line of thinking.
@62 Dalinar never refered to shardbearers…”killed an armored man wearing a full helm. It was a maneuver you practiced to use on the battlefield.”
How about Eshonai’s sister (Venli?) as Odium’s champion? Would the eyes that look familiar be because Dalinar has met Eshonai?
Eshonai believed that Venli had previous experience with the red spren, and if so, wouldn’t she already have been willingly under Odium’s influence? She was allowed to return to her previous form (whereas Eshonai seems trapped).
@84
Yeah, but the point still stands, how Sadeas died = trained skilled soldier, not assassin.
Although it’s ironic that we know that the murder was “just” a brawl turned fatal, not what they’re picturing, but it would lead to a correct conclusion anyway.
So, that limits it to about 4000 people occupying the tower, currently. Out of perhaps 10,000.
@mods:
Can we update the spoiler warning in the article preface to include all published Cosmere works? There will almost assuredly be some discussion of Warbreaker, Mistborn and Elantris in these comments.
Actually, the character I wondered about becoming Odium’s Champion was Elhokar. If anybody is being potentially set up to be “tempted by the dark side” (so to speak), it’s him. He’s king, but nobody respects him, and now Dalinar seems to be leaving him behind entirely. And given that Dalinar doesn’t know Adolin killed Sadeas, you think he would be much more shocked and confused that he recognized his son as the champion of an evil god. But maybe he already recognizes that his nephew is capable of that path?
@87
Eh, probably far fewer than that. How many lighteyed soldiers were there? The ones who would have the opportunity on the battlefield to use a move like that, and would be practicing it. I was under the impression that there were far more darkeyed soldiers present at WoRs final battle. Maybe I’m wrong.
I think Navani wrote Oathbringer as Dalinar’s post-mortem biography, and Oathbringer will end with his death.
It is strange that all of bridge 4 powers disappear when Kaladin leaves. It’s not like Kaladin was with Lopen when his arm is regrown or on the battlefield when bridge 4 started glowing as Teft reported. The whole squire thing without a personal spren seems wrong to me. Are members of bridge 4 really getting powers only through their connection to Syl? And there is a distance limit? Doesn’t make sense to me.
Re: spoiler warning–we’ve updated the warning for this excerpt and will include the expanded warning in the upcoming installments (all of which should be going up at/around 9 AM (Eastern) on Tuesday mornings, going forward.)
@92 – Yeah, I had the same thought (and made a similar point on 17S):
Re: Squires only having powers in proximity to their Radiant
Okay, so this seems off to me. We see at the end of WoR that the Lopen is able to grow back a limb while Kaladin is likely half way on the other side of Roshar in Urithuru (this is assuming that Kaladin’s conversation with Dalinar at Urithur is happening simultaneous to when the Lopen is growing back his arm in little Herdazia back at the Shattered Plains).
Alethkar is closer to Urithuru than the Shattered Plains are. Why should the squires’ powers stop working at a lesser distance?
I have to believe (barring a continuity error, which I am going to assume it is not) that there is something else going on. Maybe it’s not distance, but Kaladin completely running out of Stormlight (*spoilers* like we were shown in the preview Kaladin Chapter that Brandon did in some of his readings *end spoilers*)? Or something else going on…
I would NOT assume that those scenes were at the same time. That is the easiest way to avoid a continuity error. It could be that the Lopen was able to Invest that time, and not the time right before that, because Kaladin had just stepped through the portal to come back and collect some things (like the king, and spheres).
Am I the only one that thinks the recognition Dalinar saw in Odium’s champion eyes was something in himself? Like his relentlessness or other attribute Dalinar has?
Man, Dalinar is a badass.
@95 –
The scene with the Lopen regrowing his limb starts with the king having just woken from his drunken stupor and after word had just gotten to Sebarial’s camp about the re-discovering of Urithuru. This is likely the day after the assassination attempt (so when everyone who was at Narak -including Kaladin- is likely at Urithuru). I’m not saying it’s impossible that Kal was jumping back and forth from Urithuru to the Shattered Plains at that time, but I do find it highly unlikely. Dalinar notes that it wasn’t until a week later that the people of the warcamps started to arrive at the oathgate.
And Kal never came back for the king or spheres. The Lopen brought the king back, if I’m not mistaken. And based on the amount of stormlight needed to power the oathgates, it’s likely rather inefficient for Kal to jump back to the Shattered Plains to gain spheres.
As of what we know right now (admittedly only 3 chapters in), Dalinar’s explanation regarding the squires and their current inability to access their powers seems incomplete, or just plain wrong.
So this may be completely out of left field- but what about Sadeas as Odium’s champion? As we have seen in Arcanum Unbounded and other references – it’s not unprecedented for someone to stick around in some form after death. Kelsier did it. Who’s to say Odium didn’t pluck Sadeas out and give him the job. He has been Dalinar’s principal rival in life. Why not on a grander scale? And he looks familiar to Dalinar.
I just don’t see Eshonai or Adolin ultimately turning bad- making bad decisions and being stuck in them yes – but one needs to be morally corrupt at the core to embrace being a champion for evil I would think.
@98:
I’m not totally following the logic of what you are saying. They were saying it was going to take 5 days to travel to the Oathgate from the warcamps. This scene takes place on the 6th day, and Lopen and the king are there. I thought at the end of Words of Radiance, they don’t have enough spheres to transport everyone, and Kaladin doesn’t have enough to travel to Alethcar, and Dalinar says he will get him spheres from the King. So, someone has to travel back and get those spheres from the warcamp. The only one who could have done it fast enough is Kaladin, because he can fly.
EDIT:
Reviving a lost trend. I got the Hunny.
Until Proven wrong I’m going to believe the in-world Oathbringer book is written by Dalinar. It’s a proper history of the Blade and the people who wielded it. It includes Sadeas”s betrayal and murder by his son Adolin.
Also, The Shattered Plains are a heck of a lot closer to Alethkar than Urithiru is, so wouldn’t Kaladin take the Oathgate first, then fly to his home?
@100 – Which scene are you referencing? Are you confusing some of the timeline?
In Chapter 87 of WoR Kal lands at the oathgate after defeating Szeth. He travels through the oathgate with Bridge 4. He floats (falls) down from the oathgate pedestal to talk to Dalinar and Navani about Elhokar. All of this happens within the same 24 (or is it 20, I forget?) hour period as the assassination attempt on the king by Moash/Graves.
The scene with the Lopen starts by identifying the king waking from his drunken stupor. It is almost certainly within 24 (or 20) hours since the assassination attempt took place. Kaladin is at Urithuru and the Lopen/King is at little Herdaz in Sebarial’s camp in the Shattered Plains.
In Chapter 89, one week later, the Lopen, the King and other people from the warcamps have made their way to the oathgate at Narak, and from there, to Urithuru. That was when Dalinar mentioned requisitioning spheres from the king, who is now at Urithuru.
Edit:
@102 – The fact that the Shattered Plains are farther from Urithuru than Alethkar is to Urithuru is part of my point. If the Lopen was able to access his powers while Kal was at Urithuru and the Lopen was at the warcamps in the Shattered Plains, then why can’t his squires access their powers when they are in Urithuru and Kal is marginally closer in Alethkar?
No mention of our friendly, neighborhood Truthless of Shinovar? While we’re on the topic of which characters are vulnerable to manipulation, he’s at the top of that list if you don’t limit it to good guys turning bad.
@104 I thought of Szeth too. I lean towards Sadeas because he really would be completely unexpected by Dalinar -being dead and all. And Sadeas is open to manipulation through his lust for power- kind of the ultimate power trip being the champion of an all powerful force.
I have thought for awhile that Dalinar had gone to the Nightwatcher not because his wife Shallash had died but because of something she had did. Dalinar’s character is the essence of Honor. I never was able to buy into the story that he wanted to forget his wife because of her death. Which lead me to think that she had did something that his honor couldn’t forgive so he went to the nightwatcher to ‘forget her’, so his honor wouldn’t get in the way. I had always assumed it had something to do with Navani but we only had her attitude towards the situation to go on, which wasn’t very positive. I now believe that one of the women in the room with King Gavilar was Shallash. My theory is that she was having an affair with the King and that our champion will be the product of that affair. Familiar eyes is something you see in your families eyes not in the eyes of those you might recognize. And as many have already pointed out having the champion be Elhokar, Adolin, or Renarin wouldnt be much of a twist plot. A king’s affair would also explain the contempt Navani has for her former husband and the love that she has for Dalinar and his honor. All the players are in place for this sad triangle.
Oathbringer may be the name of the Sunmaker’s biography. Oathbringer was originally the Sunmaker’s sword and he was the one who gave it its name. It is possible, however, that Oathbringer is a book that is found in Urithiru which caused the Sunmaker to name his Blade what he did.
I’d just like to say, as someone whose lunch hour ends at 2pm UK time, i.e. 9am Eastern, that I’m going to assume this new time for releasing the chapters is intended as a form of torture for me and my countrymen until I see proof to the contrary.
And also that, given Moash’s habit of listening to the wrong people and joining the wrong clubs, I can definitely see him ending up as Odium’s champion, creating an extra level of tension if Kaladin ends up having to fight him again. Though his ‘How did I end up in this situation?’ moment at the end of WoR could set him on a slightly more productive path in the future, possibly as a Diagram whistleblower.
Finally finished it (had to read in bits and pieces on breaks at work), and that was fantastic. Don’t have too much to add that hasn’t been said, but I’ll throw out some thoughts.
I too had the worry about Adolin becoming Odium’s champion, started by the conflict of whether to reveal himself as Sadeas’ murderer. I expect that he probably won’t go that far, but I also expect that he will waver for a time as he tries to reconcile who he wants to be with what he did. Renarin, on the other hand…I didn’t consider him until I read the comments about him, and now…I’m worried. I hope he doesn’t go evil, because I like him, even if that path makes sense.
I’m interested in the implications of Stormfather not seeing the “Odium’s Champion” part of the vision. Was that sighting not originally part of the vision? Meaning Odium or the Unmade or something are somehow influencing the visions? Or did Stormfather just…not deem that part of the vision worth paying attention to?
Like many, I too enjoy young Dalinar. I was unsure if I would enjoy seeing into “Blackthorn’s” mind, but you can definitely see where Dalinar had space to grow into the man he currently is and where Sadeas had room to grow into the man he is was…
So i have been juggling this idea for awhile now. I think Adolin had been slowly being set up to become a radiant but remember what syl said to Kal about all the radiants being broken? That strikes me as major foreshadowing. And Adolin isn’t/wasn’t broken. Murdering a high prince thought? That’s a big deal and if that doesn’t break him perhaps being caught or facing dalinar’s disappointment will start the chain of events leading him to reforge himself as a radiant.
My initial comments.
An army of Shin warriors. That would be something to see given how their society has been described. Szeth is the anomaly.
I like the name Sunmaker. That is a very cool nickname. I hope we learn his/her real name.
Interesting that Odium’s champion had Shardplate. That would imply that he has some connection to Roshar. Perhaps he/she was a former KR who was seduced to Odium’s side. If it was Odium himself (as the Stormfarther suggests), the wearing of Shardplate is even more interesting. I would not think Odium would wear Shardplate. I do not recall the Heralds wearing such armor. I thought it had something to do with the bond that a spren has with a KR that allows him/her to wear Shardplate.
Of course, that is another question I have. Can somebody explain exactly (if it is known) what exactly how the KR of old were able to wear Shardplate. We know the Shardblade is the manifestation of the KR’s spren transforming itself into a sword (or any other weapon/eating utensil that the KR needs — see Kaladin or Lift).
The young Dalinar was not a very nice person. It appears that both Dalinar and Galivar were equally not nice. Not sure exactly what Navani saw in either of them. I wonder what her family history was. Was her courting of the brothers part of a political marriage that helped her family? Or was it strictly for love? Hopefully we will find out the answers as part of Oathbringer’s flashbacks.
(BTW, since Oathbringer is only one word, what abbreviation should we use? OB is not technically correct and a simple O looks stupid.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Andrew @111 – We don’t yet know what the mechanism is for KR to obtain Plate. All we have so far are hints and speculations.
Also, I don’t know about everyone else, but I use OB for an abbreviation, and will continue to do so until someone comes up with something I think is better.
Something just occurred to me after reading more closely (I was too excited to pay good attention I read the chapters very quickly), the vision is not set into the future: they are a recording Honor left behind. Destructed Kholinar merely is a background meant to warn the recipient of the visions of what may befall if he/she fails…
So how can it be possible for Odium’s champion, as depicted within this vision, to be either one of Dalinar’s sons? Or anyone he knows? Honor would not know whom would receive the visions, nor would he know people he know nor can he predict the future.
Unless someone has a rational to explain how this creature could be anyone we know, anything else than a mere representation of what once was, then I will disagree it implies anything with respect to either Adolin nor Renarin’s future.
@106: why are you saying Dalinar’s wife is Shallash, a Herald? We only know her name as Shushu. A rush of sound in his ears.
Are you confusing the two, or do you really think he was married to a Herald?
@108: Sorry about the timing. Several of us were hoping the midnight release would continue. Tor said otherwise.
@100: Anthony, congrats on the hunny. :-)
Will we get a second one before next week?
I think OB is going to win as the abbreviation for Oathbringer. OBr is not catching on and yes, just O looks wrong.
@113 Gepato, thank you for pointing that out. I was waiting until I finished all of the comments to mention that.
@96 I also agree that the familiar eyes was a reference to how he saw his old “Blackthorn” self. Be it that he recognized hatred, anger, the Thrill or some other emotion instead of a physical familiarity. Perhaps he is afraid of becoming like his old self, that “chilling familiarity” so to speak.
Am I the only one who’s actually doubting these visions? I dunno if I’m just overthinking. I just cant forget how Mistborn’s prophecies were so misleading. What if Odium is actually manipulating Dalinar? How do we know that that’s really Stormfather talking to him? That’s a possibilty right? It could be him that he saw in the vision as Odium’s champion.
How about Sadeas being champion of Odium?
He ‘may’ be dead now but how difficult it is for Odium to bring him back life, somewhat similar to Heralds being reborn?
Sadeas fits the hatred bill very well. At the time of his death, he was a perfect candidate character wise to be the champion.
Interesting that Adolin thinks of what he did to Sadeas as murder. I remember during Alice’s re-read of WoR, the comments had spirited arguments as to whether it was legally murder (at least as how murder is defined in RL). At least we know how Adolin thinks of what he did. To be clear, I am not saying that Adolin believes he regrets what he did or that he did not believe that what he did was not justified. I am merely saying that in his mind, Adolin characterizes what he did as murder.
In line with the questions that Gepeto asks @113. Is the person in Sharplate Dalinar sees in his vision the last champion of Odium? Or is Odium’s current champion. If the latter, then how can Odium (or anybody else), affect Honor’s “pre-recorded” message. I agree with noblehunter @45 that Dalinar is misunderstanding what he sees. (Although my reason for Dalinar misunderstanding what he sees may be different than noblehunter’s reason.)
Dalinar sees what the version of the Odium’s champion looked like the last time. Yet he thinks that will be the form of the current enemy. Other than the red eyes, I think the enemy will be something like it was, but not the same. In the same way that the Desolation brought forth the Voidbringers this time around. Yet they were brought by the Everstorm. As Jasnah learned, that was not the way it was done in the past.
How old is Dalinar at the start of Oathbringer? I think he is 55 but that is only a guess. Do we have a confirmation in text or a WoB?
AnthonyPero @3. I believe Brandon has said the titles for all of the SA books will be titles of in-world books.
Kefka @7. I would be surprised if Adolin turns to Odium. I do not see his arc as being a fall of Lucifer arc. While I believe he will suffer some consequences, I think most of the consequences will be to his conscience. In the end, I think he will become a stronger individual and possible form a Nahel bond with a spren. I have no textual support or WoB; just a gut feeling.
Gepeto @62. Well said re Adolin not becoming an Odium disciple and/or Odium’s champion. I agree completely.
Gepeto @62 and @83. On the other hand, I think you are being a bit too harsh on Elhokar. This is Dalinar’s thought about Elhokar and viewing the body.
“Even Elhokar, the king, had been wounded by assassins in his palace while the armies were fighting at Narak. He’d been recuperating ever since. Dalinar wasn’t certain if he would come to see Sadeas’s body or not.”
First, you cannot affirmatively say that Elhokar will not see the body. Dalinar does not know if Elhokar will be able to. It could be that later. Eljokar will view the body. Second, if Dalinar says the king was wounded, I do not believe it is factually correct (at least from the what we know in WoR and the first 3 chapters in Oathbringer) that Elhokar was not wounded. Why would Dalinar lie to himself? The quoted language was Dalinar’s thoughts; not Dalinar speaking to somebody else. Third, sitting at a table eating soup is not the same as walking up and down an unknown number of stairs and corridors.
Gepeto @83. I disagree with the following statement: “It means the killing potentially has to be done by someone knowing how to kill a Shardbearer.” If the killer is able to come upon Sadeas by surprise and strike before 10 heartbeats, then the killer would not have to worry about the Shardblade. It is common knowledge (at least I think it is common in world knowledge) that it takes 10 heartbeats to call forth a Shardblade once you have bonded the weapon. A trained assassin will sneak up on somebody and strike within 10 heartbeats.
Jack_MacGuire @92. I like your theory of Oathbringer being a post-death biography on Dalinar’s life.
Anthony Pero @100. You might have grabbed the 100, but you will never be the first to reach the 100 on the pre-release Oathbringer posts. That title belongs to me for snagging the hunny on the prologue post. (The musespren says with a evil laugh)
Sean Patrick @106. Dalinar’s wife having an affair with Gavilar, and bearing a child to boot. Now that is a theory. It is possible that Dalinar’s wife had an affair with his brother. However, I do not think she bore a child from such an affair. It would have been hard to hide the fact that she was pregnant. Had she become pregnant and the common belief was that the baby died during birth, I think other characters would have made mention of that fact. But who knows.
Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@118: The more I think of it, the more I am convinced Dalinar can’t have realistically seen anyone he knows. This isn’t how his visions work: readers are merely picking up on a popular theory wanting Adolin to plunge towards darkness and use the first opportunity to rant for it to happen.
My current guess is Dalinar is around 55, so 5 years older than I initially thought.
I will fully disclaim it here: I do not like Elhokar, I feel no sympathy towards him. The fact he did not see fit to make an effort to bring his kingly ass to the crime scene where one of his Highprince was brutally murdered does not speak highly of him. Yes, he is injured, but we also know he isn’t injured enough to justify not showing up. My current thoughts are he is using his injury as an excuse to hide and not take his responsibilities.
Speaking of responsibilities, am I the only one who rolled his/her eyes upon seeing Renarin, yet again, refuse to contribute? I mean, for a boy having whine endlessly on how useless he was because of his sickness, I find his attitude very off-putting.
About the killing, Dalinar speaks of it as a method to fight Shardbearers, one use on battlefield. I do think it is important he took note of it: this will come into play later on. They will conclude the murderer can’t have been an assassin and if they start to think it isn’t an assassin…
I am pretty convince Shshsh never had an affair with Gavilar.
I literally shivered when I was reading Chapter 3. This was the most descriptive prose I have read in recent times! Thanks Brandon for awakening me. I can’t wait to read more!
@103:
I’ll try to comment on your timeline tomorrow when I’m fresh, and at a computer, but for now, I think you’re missing my point regarding distances. My point wasn’t which was closer to Urithiru, it’s that the SP are SIGNIFICANTLY closer to Alethcar that Urithiru. Kaladin would not fly to Alethcar from Urithiru. He would Oathgate to the SP, then fly home, because it’s half the distance.
Honestly, IF Odium chooses a champion this time around, I suspect it’s going to be someone noone expects. Like Tarvangian, Renarin, Ialai, or…
…Dalinar.
No seriously. If Dalinar screws this up, his attempt to unite the entire world could destroy it. If Odium has finally learned patience, he might just …help that along, much like Ruin did.
Also, based on this first flashback, I think Dalinar has trouble with Sadeas because young Dalinar seems like he was basically a different person than he is now. Sadeas has always been a self-centered jerk, but, back in the day, his goals aligned with Gavilar’s so he was “kind” to one of their chief weapons, Dalinar. But, at some point in his life, Dalinar discovered compassion and empathy and started to think for himself, which drove a wedge between him and Sadeas.
What if the eyes being familiar means it is someone from the past? Someone Dalinar would recognized?
@118. My ideas about Adolin are less Lucifer and more Cain: his theorized fall coming from an act of betrayal his impulsiveness forced on him. I see Adolin as the high school quarterback who got a full ride to a high-end university, only to discover he might be in over his head academically. His world is changing, Adolin never was the most reserved man on Roshar, and we’ve seen him snap violently before.
@119 Gepeto
While I also don’t find Elkohar particularly sympathetic, he doesn’t have any actual responsibilities. Dalinar has usurped the throne in everything but name, serving as both king of Alethkar and leader of the Knights Radiant. He’s the regent, and he treats Elkohar like a powerless child king, protecting him but never allowing him to exercise real power. This decision makes sense; Elkohar is utterly unprepared to rule Alethkar at the best of times, and he obviously can’t manage a crisis like this. But one of the consequences of Dalinar’s rule is that Elkohar is placed in an impossibly awkward position. Whenever he shows up, people have to ignore him and pay attention to his uncle, leaving him nothing to do but sit around, keep his mouth shut, and try to look kingly.
If Dalinar wants to be the king, that’s okay. Obviously Elkohar isn’t up for the job. Since he’s the king, though, the best thing Elkohar can do is stay out of his way. What’s the point in showing up if you can’t accomplish anything meaningful except to distract the man who’s actually handling the situation?
@124: Violently? Young Dalinar, this was violent, but Adolin? When did he ever act violently? When he raged at Sadeas for downright discrediting Dalinar in front of the Alethi court? When Sadeas called his brother useless? When he threatened to kill Sadeas after Sadeas told him he would kill both his father and the king?
I disagree Adolin is violent and he will betray his family: he lives only for them. He will not betray Dalinar.
I don’t find the analogy with the quarter-back to be entirely accurate. Adolin is more the perfect son, the one being talented at everything his world deems important (so if it were our world, the equivalent would be him being both a star athlete and a competent student, not just the dumb jock, because our world considers academic successes are important) up until the amount of pressure he puts onto himself exceeds what he can channel/control. Then he cracks.
@125: Well, being present and useless seems preferable to not being seen at all. Even if he just king in name, he ought to have been there.
I live in Houston in an area that has been flooding today and it’s been a crazy day trying to help people out whose homes are flooded but got to read this tonight at the end of the day and it was so great to have a happy moment today, just wanted to say thank you for releasing some of the book early like this.
@@@@@ 127 – Dirk – glad to hear that you are alright. I also commend you that though you actually live in the disaster area, you still find time and energy to help those less fortunate.
I’m in Dallas, so I’m more than aware of what is happening in Houston.
Unexpectedly, found young Dalinar chapter very dynamic and, at points, amusing, even if he is shown to be quite the sociopath. Such single-mindedness.
From first impressions re Oathbringer and the name, for me I think it is the book written by the Sunmaker. I do not recall that name, as I have not started a reread yet, but based on the info given here, if he tried to conquer the world (could it be he also had the visions? Since when do people get visions – recently, or regularly, from Honor’s death?) and bend it to its will, he will be forcing the locals to swear an oath of loyalty to him – given the singular (Oath, something specific) and the fact he did conquest, it could explain the name of a book, or of a sword if it helped in said conquest (hence, the book might shed light on the true reasons of the expansion, and the importance which current day folks like Sadeas care about the sword would be explained, if it is so historically significant).
Not sure what to think of Odium’s champion just yet, but neither Dalinar’s kids nor Eshonai ring true – they do not sound like willing participants. Idea of Sadeas causing mayhem after death is rather intriguing, though maybe not as a champion.
Regarding sword reawakening – recently got curious what happened to spren when a KR dies of old age? Unless they were also granted functional immortality… surely not all knights gave up the oaths, and what happens when one dies in the field of battle? (Could be this was raised before, but I do not recollect coming across this.)
Regarding the Alethi king – it could be that if Dalinar styles himself as a new Radiant (Roshar) Emperor it might be better off in the end since then he is not de jure usurping the king’s position and there might be a little more than just ceremonial functions to perform if one is head of one of the constituent kingdoms.
On the more unlikely thoughts – the whole nine shadows (and before someone mentioned Braize) led me to thinking if one of the Unmade is messing around pretending to be one of the Heralds … that could be tricky if the latter have not all stayed in touch with one another. Also, has it been confirmed anywhere that all survive to the present day? And what can kill a Herald?
Finally, what the hegg did Navani see in either of the brothers given the flashback chapter? I have questions for the lady.
Re: Adolin and a potential fall,
I always saw it as the guy who was the best wagonmaker on the cusp of the automobile age. The perfect son, but all his skills that allow him to contribute are becoming irrelevant. Master Duelist? Probably not a good idea to be dueling allies in a war for humanity’s survival. Shardbearer? Radients do it better. He has other good qualities but those two are at the core of how he defines himself. He is too much of a Kholin to not want to be at the forefront but his own girlfriend is more qualified. The bitterness that could invoke can turn anyone down a very dark path, possibly even to Odium’s doorstep. I personally hope not. It may be far fetched, but it is possible.
If I had to make a guess, I would pick Taln. He is old enough to have appeared in Dalinar’s visions as well as someone he knows. Brandon won’t confirm whether or not he’s one of the Heralds. Why would he be coy with Taln unless he had something more in mind for him, especially since he had no such qualms when asked to identify other ex-Heralds we’ve seen. If he’s the same Talenel from WOK, 4500 years is plenty of time to break and reforge anyone. (Talenel is the one Herald who died in the last Desolation right?)
Last, please explain Braize numerology. Is it something I missed? It sounds like a fact in the Arcanum.
@126 Gepeto
I agree that Adolin, unlike Young Dalinar, doesn’t seem to be addicted to the Thrill or eager to solve every problem with force. Adolin only responds violently when someone threatens his family. That’s not abnormal by our standards, much less by the social rules of Alethi lighteyes.
I still don’t think Adolin’s decision to murder Sadeas was wrong. Sadeas had attempted to murder Adolin’s father, and he’d made it clear that he wasn’t going to stop trying in the future. He’d declared himself an enemy of the Kholin family, and Adolin responded in a way that was entirely in keeping with both Alethi tradition and common sense. I understand and share Dalinar’s belief that Alethi society has to move beyond backstabbing and murder, but Sadeas was essentially exploiting Dalinar’s principles to protect himself from retaliation, and Adolin wasn’t going to let his father’s rules get in the way of protecting his father’s life.
Re: Elkohar
Fair enough. It would be better for Elkohar to show up, but I can understand how difficult it would be to have people defer and bow to you while your older, more respected uncle makes all of the actual decisions. Elkohar was raised on a steady diet of flattery and deference, and he spent far too long being protected from the consequences of his mistakes. Now that he’s adjusting to reality, he’s going to be pretty much useless until he finally makes the transition from “spoiled princeling” to “responsible human being”. It’s not really a defense of his character, but no one can make that kind of change quickly or easily. Elkohar has a lot of work to do just in terms of breaking bad habits, much less building the kind of new ones he needs to be a decent adult.
There may be room to theorize that the Unmade are Cognitive Shadows of the Heralds.
WoB tells us that the Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow of Honor. Things in the Cognitive Realm appear to become more persistent as a result of the collective cognitive experience of sentient beings in the Physical Realm. Think of Leras’ explanation of the inverted lake in Secret History. He said it had to do with “the way men think, and where they are likely to pass”. Other hints include Kelsier’s experience with starting the cookfire that had burned for many generations of Skaa, Shallan’s experience of persuading the Wind’s pleasure to change, or her thought-provoking “I am a stick” conversation when trying to start a fire.
It seems like the more persistent the thought or sense of purpose, the more persistent the object becomes in the Cognitive realm. Now imagine how much of a cognitive impression would have been left by the Heralds, fighting and suffering for many millenia? Maybe this collective cognition was powerful enough to leave behind a Cognitive Shadow or a spren of each Herald that could somehow be controlled or corrupted by Odium? We know from Taravangian that at least one of the Unmade is a Spren.
Not sure how to reconcile 10 Heralds to 9 Voidbringers. Maybe the Champion counts as 1, plus the 9 shadows equals 10? Or maybe it has to do with the Oathpact – maybe Taln’s suffering paid the price to contain 1 of the Unmade so only 9 remain?
@62 – They did make it a point to mention how Dalinar recognized the eye wound to be a battlefield maneuver – which is very similar to how Kaladin killed the shardbearer (presumably Heloran). I wonder if somehow Kaladin will be implicated by someone who knows about that battle, either Amaram or a bridgeman?
I have speculated since WoR that Oathbringer would involve a justice/mercy faceoff between Adolin and Nale, with Dalinar standing as a Bondsmith mediator of some kind. Not sure if Nale’s character turn in Edgedancer will change his harshness, however.
@72 and @122 – I was thinking the same thing. How about this massive plot twist – what if Dalinar is the Champion? Here are three possible supporting arguments –
1. Dalinar described the Unmade as “terrible spren who twisted the minds of men”,
2. Dalinar’s former ‘addiction’ to the Thrill has been alluded to frequently in WoK and WoR, and
3. the Thrill likely comes from Nergaoul, a voidbringer.
So imagine if voidish influences are able to cause Dalinar to ‘relapse’ by succumbing again to the Thrill and then twist him for their purposes. I know it’s a stretch and we would all hate it, but what a huge “oh crap!” moment would that be for our heroes? Can you imagine a gnarlier antagonist than an Odium-controlled Blackthorn? And the heartwrenching, subsequent quest to save Dalinar from Odium’s grasp?
I’m in New Zealand and am plenty aware enough of whats going on in Houston.
@@@@@ 127 – Best wishes and hope you and all your loved ones are safe.
@@@@@ Various – I wonder if the name Oathbringer has anything to do with the founding of the Knights’ Radiant? As in it had something to do with “finding” or “discovering” the oaths that led one to become a KR.
Re. the Champion: the first book said that one of four characters (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, and Szeth) would be the one to destroy the world, so it’s likely one of them. They all have a flaw Odium could exploit. Kaladin will not look before he leaps, and it always backfires on him. Shallan’s overconfidence makes her play very dangerous games. Dalinar is this-close to becoming an out-and-out tyrant. Szeth is mentally scarred and now has a bad influence talking to him all the time. Brandon could be using misdirection, but I don’t think that he is.
AP@121 – Yeah, I think we aren’t getting each other, so let me try this another way.
Let’s start with 3 givens and 2 assumptions:
-Given #1: The Alethi war camps are on the edge of the Shattered Plains, near the Southeast part of Roshar
-Given #2: Urithuru is believed by Alethi scholars to be in the center of Roshar, near Tu Bayla or Emul
-Given #3 Hearthstone is in the northwest portion of Alethkar
-Assumption #1(I think this is a given, but you may still have issue with the timeline and Kal/Lopen’s given locations, so let’s call it an assumption): Lopen was in the war camps and was able to access Stormlight and re-grow his arm while Kaladin was at Urithuru with Dalinar, Navini, Shallan, etc.
-Assumption #2: Kaladin is flying northwest from the Shattered Plains to Hearthstone
Without knowing relative distances, let’s just measure in a more basic way: If we draw a line on the map from the middle of Roshar (Urithuru) to the Shattered Plains, then we draw a line on the map from the middle of Roshar (Urithuru) to the northwest portion of Alethkar, it is obvious that the line between Urithuru and Alethkar would be shorter than the one between Urithuru and the Shattered Plains. Basically, the Shattered Plains are farther away from Urithuru than Alethkar is from Urithuru.
My first assumption is that the Lopen was able to access Stormlight while he was at the Shattered Plains and Kaladin was at Urithuru. My second assumption is that Kaladin is somewhere between the Shattered Plains and Alethkar, which means he is traveling in a northwest direction; but more importantly, at this point in the story, we can assume that he is almost certainly closer to Urithuru than the warcamps are to Urithuru. If distance from their Radiant is a factor in a squire accessing their powers, then shouldn’t Kaladin’s squires in Urithuru still be able to access their powers since Kaladin is closer than the Shattered Plains and we know their link can stretch that far?
Clearly I agree with your point that Kal would likely not fly from Urithuru to Alethkar, he would likely fly from the Shattered Plains to Alethkar for a number of reasons (distance, familiarity with the terrain). I don’t see where in my posts at 94, 98 or 103 I suggest otherwise, and it seems as if you are using that point to somewhat counter mine (which again, is: Why should the squires powers stop working when they are at a shorter distance from Kaladin then Lopen was on the day that he regrew his arm?) Otherwise, I don’t see where we disagree…
A couple of clarifications…
Dalinar doesn’t think of the blade-in-the-eye as having anything to do with Shardbearers in particular, just “an armored man wearing a full helm.”
On a battlefield, a soldier would face many more normally armored men than Shardbearers. On a battlefield, you would be unlikely to get anywhere close to a Shardbearer with a knife – Kaladin’s trick was almost unheard of. A man carrying a normal sword and wearing normal plate, though, is a much more likely possibility.
Elhokar’s wound was bad enough that Kaladin was concerned about him bleeding to death. He considers it “a very survivable wound, with medical attention” (Ch. 82) – and there was no medical attention for a while. He was quite concerned about blood loss (also Ch. 82), and once Moash & Graves showed up, at least twice, Kaladin looked to make sure Elhokar was still breathing. (Ch. 83 and 84). So while the knife had glanced off a rib and the wound wasn’t in itself life-threatening, the blood loss could have been. Elhokar lost enough blood that surgeon-trained Kaladin was afraid he’d die; it can take a while to recover from losing that much blood. In the Herdazian scene, we don’t see Elhokar at all; we merely hear him protesting in a weak voice when Lopen’s mother insists that he eat. We don’t know whether he was sitting at a table, or propped up in a bed. (I would guess the latter, myself, but I have no proof of either one.) After that, he was transported from the warcamp to the Oathgate and thence to Urithiru, all in the space of six days. So while it’s certainly possible he could have recovered enough in that time to be more active, it’s also entirely possible that he might not have.
So. Just saying, be careful what you read between the lines. It’s not always as clear as you might assume.
AndrewHB @111:
Oathbringer is a single word, but it is made up of two separate words. As you note, denoting the book with O to represent the single word seems silly, and I would suggest that OB, while technically incorrect, seems the lesser of the two evils.
Nynaeve @114:
I hope so. OBr looks even sillier to me than O.
@110 Heather Wagner:
He is not broken yet (WOB). He might break still, but – I don’t know if he’s being set up. Maybe that’s just us interpreting what we want to see?
Concerning Sunmaker: Am I the only one who gets a distinct Nalthis vibe from this name? *squints at Vasher*
Brandon has already shown that death is not permanent in this series(Jasnah)
Could it be that Sadeas comes back as Odium’s champion. He has enough evil in him to take up sides with Odium as his own has rejected him and he will want revenge.
EvilMonkey @130:
The perfect son, but all his skills that allow him to contribute are becoming irrelevant.
I couldn’t disagree more. First of all, I don’t see Shallan, Renarin or Jasnah becoming better fighters than Adolin in a hurry, even with the Radiant advantages. They’ll need a lot of training to become competent on a battlefield – though healing properties of stormlight may allow them to accelerate that, somewhat, since fear of injuries could be discounted.
Even when the number of great fighters among the Radiants grows, Adolin’s skills still won’t become _obsolete_ – after all, even in the past the Radiants didn’t do it alone, they needed support of normal soldiers. And shardbearer is much more than that. So, he won’t be a star anymore, but he’ll definitely remain very useful as a fighter.
But that’s not all he is – Adolin is also a good general (with potential to become great) – and the mix of talent, education and experience that goes into this is something that Radiancy can’t confer. This skill is going to remain crucial.
Gingeriffic! @132:
There may be room to theorize that the Unmade are Cognitive Shadows of the Heralds.
But isn’t there a WoB that the Heralds themselves already _are_ cognitive shadows? And from what I understand, the Unmade have been around during prior Desolations, concurrently with the Heralds, they are not the product of breaking of the Oathpact.
I mean, the idea of a person having to fight their own evil shadow could be interesting (Hans Christian Andersen explored the concept in one of his fairy-tales), but this “shadow of a shadow” stuff would be rather convoluted, IMHO.
Chintan @141:
Could it be that Sadeas comes back as Odium’s champion.
Please, no! I really, really hope that Sanderson doesn’t go full comic on this. Let’s not endlessly recycle dead villains! It is bad enough that Szeth had his highly contrived escape.
I know that this is hypocritical of me, since I am glad that Jasnah survived and hope that Eshonai will too, but they are fairly unusual characters (for the fantasy genre) that we have seen too little of as yet.
Sadeas is a fairly run-of-the-mill villain, though, so I really don’t see any reason to ressurect him. There already are much more interesting antagonists around – such as Mr. T, Nale, etc., and I am sure that Sanderson can come up with more.
I also somewhat agree with those who remind us that the vision is a recording and that Honor was always bad at foreseeing the future (which is hopefully not fixed in this world anyway). Also, that he had no idea who the recepient(s) of his recordings were going to be. So the champion, if that’s what it was, couldn’t be anybody Dalinar knows from his life. Perhaps what looks so familiar to him is the Thrill and the bloodlust.
However – there is still a possibility that the champion is somebody familiar to Dalinar from the visions. We haven’t been shown all of them yet, but – wouldn’t he have seen the Heralds in some of them? And wouldn’t it be a coup for Odium to convert one of _them_?
I mean, something like that would have been within Honor’s ability scope to predict as a possibility, no? After all, he was killed _after_ their apostasy.
BTW, given all the speculations about “Odiumlight” and how it could be black last week, it is interesting to note that it is actually golden and beautiful as well as terrible. And gold is the color of the glory-spren. Hm…
Some of these “champion” suggestions are headshake worthy… renarin, venli, sadeas, taravangian (spelling?)??? Considering Honor says In the way of king’s visions that one way to defeat odium is to get him to choose a champion, and to challenge him, those would be some rather pathetic champions to fight on behalf of Odium. None are warriors with the exception of sadeas, and from the sound of things, he’s mostly had going for him that he’s always fought in a full set of plate. I guess Moash was mentioned as a possibility too, but again, easily dispatched by one of our more talented “good side” heroes. It would also be incredibly lazy writing to just “turn” one of our current champions who are trying to save the world, never mind that it would be out of character for them and that there are already so few people actively trying to save the world. Eshonai seems unlikely as well since (if she’s not dead), she’s actively trying to break from the control of her evil spren and stormform.
No, I fully expect Brandon to have something much more interesting cooked up with this Champion, and likely a character we have not seen.
First of all, this is so great! Thanks TOR for the treat!
About Odium’s champion, my guess is that the familiarity Dalinar feels is more related to some emotion those red eyes show. Maybe is something that Dalinar can instinctually recognize in himself, even if he cannot pinpoint it at this time. I don’t know if this has ever been discussed, but I always associated the Thrill to Odium’s influence on men. In fact, in a passage of the previous books I remember Adolin not feeling the Thrill and feeling nauseous during a battle (sorry if the reference is missing, I do need a re-read), and I associated that to the character getting closer to Honor’s way, like his father. So, what if what Dalinar sense in the champion is what he used to rely so much in his youth himself?
About Adolin’s development, I do not think he is going to become Odium’s champion. Somehow it would feel like a “cheap” twist. Also, I think Adolin’s character has so much potential even without him becoming a Radiant. I think him realizing how to be of help to his Radiant bethroted and be a main character in his own right without necessarily trying to be “the hero” would be a very interesting dynamic to see developed: in my head I have this parallel between Shallan/Adolin and Egwene/Gawyn, but I think Adolin will be able to avoid following Gawyn’s path and will save us lots of eye-rolling.
People have said Sadeas can be the Black Radiant, if we’re considering dead people, why not Gavilar? If anything he’s been more instrumental in bringing about a desolation than anyone else.
About the bridge men and their abilities, perhaps I read things wrong but I was under the impression that the abilities faded as Kaladin left, not that they left abruptly.
@135 “the first book said that one of four characters (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, and Szeth) would be the one to destroy the world” I think Eshonai was actually included in that list of characters
I think Elhokar is Odium’s champion, he is certainly envious enough and weak enough. Also I assume his eyes are like Gavilar’s eyes ALSO he has shadows that follow him that disappear for whatever reason when Kaladin is around. He doesn’t have the character to be a radiant and if they were good spren they wouldn’t be intimidated by Kaladin’s presence.
I don’t think it’s Renarin or Adolin because Dalinar would know his sons eyes without seeing the whole face- I assume when they are wearing shard plate with helmets he only sees their eyes.
The only other suspect I think would be Moash, he has a chip on his shoulder to better than Kaladin- but so does Elhokar too…
I’m currently putting my money on Elhokar as being the champion.
Elhokar made to leave. He stopped at the door, not looking at Kaladin. “When you came, the shadows went away.”
“The . . . shadows?”
“I saw them in mirrors, in the corners of my eyes. I could swear I even heard them whispering, but you frightened them. I haven’t seen them since.
– “Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive Series #2)” by Brandon Sanderson
Those shadows that he sees have not been explained yet. Why only in the mirrors? Why did they leave when Kaladin was around? Were they truly afraid of him, if so why?
I could be wrong, it has been pointed out in the comments of WOR that he could be on his way to being a Radiant, but until these shadows are explained I’m leaning towards Elhokar.
Thanks TOR et. al.!
This is like having a favorite show that you hate/love to wait for each week. I wait for these book for years and then devour them in a few days and always feel a little sad that the experience is over. This will allow (ok, force) me to savor it a bit more and give me something to look forward to every week.
@126: Good luck Dirk, you all are in our prayers.
Re: Familiar Eyes: I didn’t read this as recognizing a person, more that the red eyes look familiar because of the voidbringers, if anything I’d have to agree with those that mentioned their familiarity being in reference to the parts of himself that are more Odium-like. EDIT: I took so long to write this monstrosity of a comment that I didn’t read @144 Dodger’s comment, but I completely agree with you and you said it so much more eloquentially than me:)
@53: I took the skybreakers comment to be more about how the skybreakers would have reason to exercise their justice on Adolin since what he did was technically against the law (Official Skybreaker Theme Song: bad boys bad boys, whatchya gonna do, whatchya gonna do when they come for you). Rather than him becoming a Skybreaker
@113: The Stormfather didn’t know about the dark figure with his 9 shadows. It is possible for them to not have been part of the original vision the Stormfather wanted to impart, and is something else entirely. It is entirely possible for him to be seeing the future, and it very well could be Adolin.
@121: Even though Hearthstone may be closer to Alethkar, the cost in stormlight to use the oathgate may have made it more sensible to travel from Urithuru.
@135: That is a good point about the first book naming one of those 4 to either save or destroy us (it kind of sounded similar to the prophecies of the dragon in the wheel of time.)
@136: I too am a bit confused by the squire/proximity thing.
Lastly, I really like Sebarial, he cracks me up and is a breath of fresh air.
Lastly Lastly, My heart goes out to Renarin. He is very earnest, and the boy just needs some confidence. he may very well turn out to be the better of the two brothers, although I do like Adolin as well.
@147: My take on the things that Elhokar sees in mirrors/shadows/thecornerofhiseye is that they were cryptics. I think they went away when Kaladin was near because either (a) Pattern had re-awakened his bond with Shallan at roughly the same time (so they didn’t need another candidate to bond with, at least for now), and/or (b) Syl was nearby to Kaladin, and we know (or can perhaps infer) that Honorspren and Cryptics don’t like being around each other, so the cryptics went somewhere else.
@149 morkus1: I agree on Elkohar seeing something spren-ish in the mirrors, also, he’s certainly damaged enough to qualify. Syl’s proximity makes those spren lie low, that’s perfectly reasonable.
Until Brandon hits us with the plot twist and it was Aliens all along. :D
@142 Sanderson has definitely used up his allotment of resurrections. Two in one book is enough for a whole series.
Re: Squires
Is it possible that we’re not talking about physical proximity, but emotional bonds? Kaladin would give his life for any of bridge 4, and they would do the same, despite physical difficulty/impossibility. This would explain why Kaladin’s friends still have power while he’s hundreds (?) of miles away.
@Isilel 142
Adolin does indeed have a remarkable skill set. The fandom sees it and the in-world characters see it. The question is, in a world that will begin to fill up with Radients, will Adolin himself recognize his value to the cause? He has never struck me as jealous or coveting others positions but he’s always been at the top of the food chain. His place gets bumped down several notches and it will be interesting how he handles it. Personally I don’t think Addie dips to Odium, just that it’s not completely implausible.
@153 Adolin seems too affable to get really put out by others being better than him. It doesn’t seem to bother him that Shallan is smarter than he is. So long as he can still contribute, I think he’ll be fine.
@127: Dirk – Good luck with all the clean up and everything else going on in the greater Houston area. All the Texas coast has been much on my mind this week.
I have family in Orange who have moved up on my worry list. Friends in the rest of the area have mostly checked in safe and dry, with only one total house loss so far. I’m in Dallas donating money to various groups. With two kids under 7, I can’t really donate time, but I wish I could.
If you are near them and need coffee or a charging station, Murder by the Book is open and offering conforms to people without power.
@139: Nynaeve is indeed part of my name inspiration. :-) Being a fiber artist is the other half.
Yep, OB is “winning” the abbreviation debate.
Re: Lopen’s arm – I agree. I wish more than a passing line had been devoted it. But maybe they are all experiencing “miracle / wonder fatigue.”
In the space of 6 days they have: rediscovered there are Knights Radiants, rediscovered a lost city everyone thought was myth, had not just a storm – but two killer storms in the middle of a long weeping – breaking a 3 thousand year + cycle, defeated the enemy they were fighting for 5 year, and spent a week in very harsh conditions.
They are all tired and worried.
One new arm? Eh, it can’t cause too much of a ripple. Even if I think it would. But even Bridge 4 is getting too used to miracles happening. Maybe they expected it once the first one of them besides Kaladin started glowing.
@various – I kinda think everyone is reading too much into the idea Odium’s champion’s eyes look familiar to Dalinar. I read it was the red color was familiar to him. If it was Sadeas/Ehlokar, he would have shown more shock, and if they reminded him of his sons, he’d surely have reacted with disbelief.
Re: Adolin going dark, either from the Sadaes murder or being jealous. I agree it seems possible; maybe even likely, but I hope it doesn’t happen. It would be too…Gawayn Trakand from The Wheel of Time.
Dalinar mentions how we are all interested to see what Renarin can do, but I’m just as interested to see what Dalinar can do. So far all we know is that he can have these visions whenever he desires, but what else can a Bondsmith do?
I don’t buy Adolin as the champion either. I’m in the camp that thinks he will be an Edgedancer but he has to break first. I figure someone will get accused of Sadeas’s murder, he will come forward to admit it. He will be exiled or imprisoned and escape or what have you and go down a long, dark road. Maybe our friend Nalan will come after him. Sooner or later he’ll get a wake up call from Lift that will turn him around.
@135 “The first book said that one of four characters would be the one to destroy the world.” Don’t forget that the back-of-the-cover blurbs are actually in-world artifacts, so they may or may not be reliable.
@141 “Brandon has already shown that death is not permanent in this series.” In SA, we’ve seen one or two true resurrections (Szeth and possibly Gawx) and a fake-out (Jasnah). When Nalan brings Szeth back, he says “If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late;” and Lift was unable to save the girl (a combination of being killed with a Shardblade and waiting too long). I believe the only full-blown back-from-being-dead-for-a-long-time cases we’ve seen are the Heralds, and who knows what’s going on with them.
In the wider Cosmere, we’ve seen Returned – involving direct intervention from a Shard – and the event at the end of Secret History in which the Shard says he can’t help (could be lying) and the individual involved had to fall back upon one of the magic systems native to his planet.
Re: the Stormfather not seeing the end of the vision, this sounds like the weird vision/dream at the end of WoR; not that the light or feelings are the same, but that Dalinar is somehow able to tap into … something else … to see things that the Stormfather isn’t sending.
Re: an abbreviation, since the first two books were Wo followed by a letter, I suggest WoO </tongue-in-cheek>.
@131: Yes, I think you are highlighting characteristics which often escapes readers. We have often seen angry Adolin within the previous two books, but this wasn’t out of a personality flaw more out of the circumstances. What did I read recently… Someone argued Adolin is incapable of accepting the possibility harm befalling onto his family, especially his father. He can’t accept Dalinar is not invincible so when this ideology is threatened, he bars his teeth. I liked the analysis.
He however is not a violent individual, not unless circumstances call for it. We have never seen him rush into the battle, pleased to kill, eager to slaughter. He is always surprinsingly cold-headed and calculated whenever he is fighting, much unlike his father once was. Readers have often linked Adolin to a young Blackthorn, but I have always felt the flashbacks disapproved the analogy as the more I read of them, the more absolutely cannot see Adolin within young Dalinar. Some aspects, perhaps, but the core of him is not Dalinar. Mother, maybe?
@137: Thanks for clarifying on Elhokar’s injury. I will however maintain my point: he ought not to have gone silent over something as important as one of his Highprinces being murdered. He could have used a litter, he could have sent a “representative” to speak in his name. He could have taken actions and, as far as I can tell, it doesn’t seem like he has. To follow.
On Adolin being broken or not: His life is not over, just because he isn’t broken now does not mean he will never encounter hardships harsh enough to break him within the future. Dalinar only broke in his late forties/fifties, presumably.
On Adoln having skills: Yes, he does and no they aren’t irrelevant, but 9 persons out of 10 died within previous Desolations (per Nohadon). There are severe limits as to what he’ll be able to do, even as a war general. He is also highly likely to die within those fights, already Dalinar mourns the fact he has lost each and every one of his highlords but Khal. For someone like Adolin, who appears more affected than his father over seeing his soldiers die, the backlash from the upcoming Desolation, even if he doesn’t pay with his life, might be too much to bear, especially if he is powerless to do anything he’d consider worth doing.
I also don’t personally find Adolin’s growth as a war general to be the most interesting path for his character to follow. It may be just me, but Adolin and soldering, something seems very wrong about it. To follow.
On Adolin and jealousy: Adolin certainly isn’t above feeling jealous though his trigger buttons might be entirely different than those most readers usually give him. While it is true he never came across as envious of other people’s skills (not when he feels they were earned), one of the most garded secret within the fandom is how Adolin actually grew up jealous of his kid brother. Why? Because Renarin had more attention than he did. So while seeing everyone around him being Radiants isn’t going to help, what may trigger Adolin’s jealousy is not their status nor their powers, but seeing Dalinar give them more attention and develop a relationship with them akin to the father/children one. Therefore, if he feels his own relationship with his father is somewhat lacking, he may actually grow negative feelings of jealousy about the situation.
I read Adolin as someone wanting to be loved by those he loves the most, but who somewhat grew up thinking he needs to be perfect for it to happen. He would never admit weakness nor fear nor unease nor anything: whatever is tossed at him, he will pretend it does not bother him, up until he can’t. To follow.
On ressurection: Brandon did say that while it was a major theme within the Cosmere, he understood he had overused the trope for the moment being. He also agrees he needs to design a clear way to determine whom is dead-dead from whom is not dead. This came after readers complained over the too many ressurections in WoR.
On resurrection, as Gepeto just mentioned, this is worth taking the time to read.
@KiManiak
Still not at my desk, but the only point I’m trying to make is that Lopen infusing while Kaladin was at Urithiru, but NOT able to infuse while at Urithiru while Kaladin was in Alethcar would be a continuity error. Too big of one to happen within 4000 words of each other.
THEREFORE, Kaladin was NOT at Urithiru when Lopen infused. He had either not yet traveled from the SP to Urithiru (even though the Lopen scene happened after that in the book), OR (more likely) Kaladin traveled back through the Oathgate offscreen immediately prior to Lopen infusing.
This last interpretation makes sense of Lopen not being able to infuse, then suddenly being able to.
As far as other commenters pointing out that the Oathgate takes more Stormlight than traveling directly to Alethcar via gravitational Surges… That might be true for a large group, but it take significantly less to transport a single person, and it’s certainly faster.
Ultimately, based on what Dalinar says, there are only two possibilities:
1) Kaladin was on the SP when Lopen infused
2) It’s a continuity error
Until I see text that contradicts that Kaladin gated back to the SP, I’m going to choose to believe that over it being an error.
@129 WoB is that when a KR dies, as long as they kept their oaths, for the spren it would be as losing a close friend or family member. They would be distressed, but not killed, and they could go on to bond others in time.
QUESTION
After a spren has been bonded, what happens if the person it’s bonded with dies?
BRANDON SANDERSON
It is an emotional event for the spren, but not a damaging one. As long as their oaths are unbroken.
ARGENT
Kind of like if a close friend dies?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Maybe a little more personal than that.
I have a confession to make… I totally ship Shallan and Kaladin so if Adolin becomes the bad guy, as thought of in previous comments, I’m okay with it. He was in the way of my ship anyways.
Sorry Adolin… you just, weren’t my favorite.
Typo in Chapter 2:
“Either way, Dalinar’s lack of offi ers explained the room’s other occupants”
(missing the “c” in “officers”)
I’m hoping that’s just in the online version, and not something carried over from the published version.
That dark Shardblade of Szen though….
I think Shallan and the scouts/Bridge men will be the ones to find the sword. They are the ones looking around everywhere. Then Aladar’s new police force will get involved. I even thought we were being teased about the sword being found with Dalinar taking everyone out on the farm terrace and looking over the sides to other levels.
I don’t think Adolin will be the evil champion. He has already started to lose The Thrill so his eyes won’t have that fire. I suspect someone else may be unjustly accused and he will need to confess so an innocent person isn’t punished by Ialai. And she will demand death. Then Dalinar has to kill his son or Adolin has to run.
Since Adolin isn’t a Raidiant it doesn’t seem that Nalan will hunt him down. I thought he was only going after them?
Really only two things to add to the conversation right now the first is to address the issue of the squires’ abilities. I didn’t notice on my reread of the passage that that distance was mentioned as to why the powers were fading, it was that Kal had been away. My reading of the situation is that it’s extended time away from his squires that diminishes and eventually removes their abilities, not distance.
The second thing is Odium’s champion and his/her eyes. It doesn’t say that Dalinar recognizes the eyes, it says he recognizes something familiar *in* them. This is probably referring to the Champion being fully in the grip of the Thrill as we see in Dalinar’s flashback (hence the familiarity)
@@@@@ all the commenters. Who is the most unlikely character to become Odium’s champion? I am thinking, “what if it is Wit”?
Already a bazillion commments!
Several people already addressed this, but my first thought at the 9 shadows was the 9 Heralds who abandoned the cause – but then it explained they were Unmade (which is a term I had to go look up since I forgot what it was). At any rate, I’m still not totally unsure there couldn’t be a connection (especially if it turns out to be an unreliable narrator).
I also took the familiarity as just being the redness, but so far my favorite ideas are Gavilar, Dalinar (I had that thought myself) or possibly Elkohar. Adolin does not strike me as the type at all. I wasn’t even aware that was a theory or first instinct until I read it.
@Alice – Will it be a spoiler if I mention a chapter that was either read in a book signing or published here at Tor? It is about Kaladin going back to his home?
@161 – that was super interesting!
Although I never had an issue with either Szeth or Jasnah – it seemed clear to me that both were very different things. And I’ll be honest – I was really miffed about Jasnah, but part of me kept thinking, ‘well, maybe she had some power we didn’t know about…’. So for me the reveal at the end was a really satisfying payoff. And I think it worked to be as in the dark about it as Shallan was, to share in her feelings of confusion/helplessness/wondering what to do next, instead of knowing she’d be coming back (plus then I’d just have been really impatient about it!)
With both Szeth and Jasnah, it is within the bounds of what has been established as possible within the story, so it really didn’t bug me. And we have certainly seen other characters die for real, so I don’t feel like it has been an overused trope in these books. Of coures it’s good to know that he is aware of this and wants to make sure it’s only used for really important moments.
He does want to contribute, but he doesn’t think he is qualified to save the world. He grew up in a society where only warriors are important and thinks those who say it’s OK for him not to be a warrior are just trying to be nice to the useless kid.
The blurb quote is from the first book, which only mentions Kaladin, Szeth, Shallan and Dalinar.
Or Adolin will be the one who defeats Odium’s champion.
sheiglagh @171 – A lot of people have read the Hearthstone chapter, but not everyone, so it would be good to put comments about it in white. Or just wait until next week. For what it’s worth, though, the version released a couple of years ago has changed a little. The basics are fairly stable, but the details have been tweaked.
AP@162
Ok, so your new point is that you believe that the only two possibilities are either Lopen infused (thanks for that wording, I like that better than “access Stormlight”) at a time when Kaladin had (offscreen) returned from Urithuru to the Shattered Plains or else that there is a continuity error? Thanks for clarifying. However, I believe there are potentially many other ways to explain it.
As a matter of fact, at least 2 other possibilities have already been suggested in the comments: 1) me@94 suggested that maybe Kaladin’s squires could lose their abilities when Kaladin completely runs out of Stormlight; and 2) @168 suggested that the determining factor isn’t distance, but time away from the Radiant (then the question arises as to when exactly Kal left Urithuru for Alethkar, and if that difference in time is greater than the amount of time between when Kaladin dropped off the king with Lopen and when Lopen infused Stormlight, but I’m so not going to explore that now). We just don’t know why the abilities wouldn’t work at this point in the story.
So not only do I disagree with your stated conclusion, but I also challenge your assumption that Dalinar is reliable here. Part of the issue that I have is, how does Dalinar know this? Is he a reliable source of information, or is he just guessing? As I so uneloquently phrased it @95: Is something else going on? Or, maybe, Dalinar is just plain wrong? Has there been an event that required Bridge 4 to protect those who needed protecting, which would then allow them to infuse? We just don’t know at this point, so Dalinar’s definitive comment (if you choose to accept it as such) seems kind of… off to me, without further information.
My initial reaction to this approach is that there is no existing text that supports Kaladin gating back to the Shattered Plains at the time that Lopen infused. All we have so far is Dalinar’s offhand (and rather incomplete) comment that Kaladin’s squires had lost their abilities when Kaladin had flown away, and that clearly doesn’t mention Kaladin’s previous actions. I therefore challenge requesting text to refute a theory when there is no existing text to support that theory. YMMV.
@166: That isn’t really a Shardblade. Although it was made with knowledge of how Shardblades work.
@167: They will no longer be hunting Radiants after the events of Edgedancer, as Nalan now knows he has failed, and the Voidbringers have returned. He was only killing Radiants to prevent the return of the Voidbringers.
Wetlandernw @175 So we get the Kayaking chapter next week!? \(^.^)/ So looking forward to that and hoping it is a bit longer than the old version. :D
@176:
Fair enough, although I would point out that my phrasing, “Ultimately, based on what Dalinar says, there are only two possibilities…” was specifically chosen to allow an implied third possibility; Dalinar could be wrong. That’s why there are only two possibilities “based on what Dalinar says.” Sorry if that was confusing.
That said, if Dalinar is wrong, there’s absolutely no information to go on at all, and to my mind, there is no reason to even speculate without further information. It opens up too many possibilities to be useful. So I started my suppositions based on Dalinar being a reliable source of information, so there was at least something to base speculation on rather than wild guessing. After all, if Dalinar is an untrustworthy source, we don’t even know that that he has squires, or that anyone other than Lopen can Invest, or that Lopen has lost access with Kaladin being gone. We know nothing about any of this outside of Dalinar stating it.
So, basically, I see the conundrum that has been pointed out by you and others. They only way I’m able to resolve it with Dalinar still being a trustworthy source is if Kaladin jumped back through the Oathgate and brought them back to Uruthiru. Another problem is that in Words of Radiance, Kaladin was supposed to leave within the hour, and Dalinar says they lost the ability to Invest when he left. Well, that didn’t leave Bridge Four much time to play around with their new powers. And it makes it impossible for Lopen to even have infused the first time. Again. Assuming Dalinar is trustworthy.
Although, its worth pointing our, while we are in Dalinar’s POV, we are not in his direct thoughts at that moment, and the narration lays it out as a statement of fact. We may not be in “Deep POV”.
@169 Lopen
@177 I don’t mean to sound elitist at all, but oh, those poor folk who have yet to read Warbreaker. ;) Or all the Cosmere for that matter. They’ll get there though, eventually.
Just to beat a dead horse some more, on the topic of Odium’s Champion, my first thought was just that Dalinar, on some level, recognized the feeling of the Thrill in those eyes or in the golden light. Not once did I think the Champion might turn out to be Adolin, as so many are apparently theorizing, based on the end of WoR, but I guess we’ll see.
Adolin will definitely face consequences for Sadeas’ murder but it was a crime of passion (and fairly justified at that), rather than premeditated, and Adolin has taken no pleasure in it since it occurred. Now, do I think he should have tried covering it up? No, but that’s seeing things purely through Nalan’s eyes. Technically anyone is capable of great good or great evil but Adolin is not a bad person and I certainly don’t see him turning evil, at least not anytime soon.
RE: Shin invasions
Nah, you guys have it all wrong. They’ve always been peaceful. This was more like the British Invasion. They came, bringing music and chicken to all the good Alethkar boys and girls…
oh…about Bridge 4 being squires. i have my fingers crossed for Hobber to be able to walk again.
oh, and i think we can all safely assume Moash won’t be investing, even if kaladin is near?
@161: This is the thread I was referring too. I read it on Reddit a while ago. I did not know it had made it to the FAQ.
@173: I find Renarin’s overall reaction to be irritating. Dalinar does not ask him to save the world, he asks him to start working on his new powers, to try to figure out what he can do. Had Renarin’s reaction been: “I have tried, but it hadn’t work all too well” or “I am not even sure where to begin” my reaction might have been different, but he goes full into the “I can’t” mode. Right away.
He hasn’t tried.
I personally find his lack of combativeness and of perseverance to be irksome. Had the story at hand given us indications Renarin has been badly bullied, martyred, laughed at, pointed at and downright dismissed by everyone he meets, then I would buy more into his attitude. I would still find it irksome, but I would give him a bit of sympathy. Problem is the story, so far, has told us a different tale: nobody is ever mean nor dismissive towards Renarin (except Sadeas, this one time but truth is he also attacked Dalinar and Adolin within the same sentence, so it doesn’t exactly count), everyone genuinely loves him. Dalinar, Hoid, Kaladin, Bridge 4 are all kind, generous, comprehensive and even complaisant with him but it seems it is not enough. It seems nothing is ever enough with Renarin. I don’t buy into the soldier issue because we have seen too many high ranked lighteyed who aren’t soldiers: it isn’t a finality in itself, Renarin makes a big deal out of it, not the world. I have thus read those moments as the expression of a personality flaw, one which makes some individuals give up without trying and focusing on their own issues while forgetting the bigger ones.
It is so, whenever Renarin gets into the “I can’t do it”, “I won’t do it”, “I will not even try” or the “I am giving up because it is difficult” mode, I find it eye-rolling. And irritating. And irksome. He just gets on my bad side when he behaves this way.
This being said, I remain curious to see where he will go, as a character, but I hope those “self-bashing” moments won’t be too recurrent.
hmm maybe Sadeas will be Odium’s champion. Resurrection is a constant theme in Sanderson’s worlds.
manavortex, “The Knights Radiant and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.”
Braid_Tug, @155: not to mention which they’ve also discovered that the voidbringers, whom they thought were a myth, are real AND ARE BACK; their King has been injured in an assassination attempt; they’re having to get by without the slaves they’ve used for millennia — Alethi society has just been unceremoniously upended into a crisis where *nothing* is like what people have always known it to be.
Wingracer, at 158: I suspect one of the key plot dramas of the book is going to be Dalinar struggling with the fact that his son is guilty of murder and that he *cannot* unite the Alethi factions unless he delivers his son up for justice.
This sets up an internal struggle in Dalinar with the *potential* for him to break his oath to unite people, much like Kaladin’s internal struggle in WoR.
spiritwalker51: there’s *no way* Wit would become Odium’s champion. Just … not in his character at all.
Drygdor, at 181:
the issue for me is: what will it take to keep Ialai, and Sadeas’ men, from revolting if it becomes general knowledge that Adolin killed Sadeas? And what do the Alethi elite feel is necessary to prevent assassination from becoming an accepted form of contest?
@181 Drygdor
Speaking as someone who understands Adolin’s motives and doesn’t find his decision to kill Sadeas morally objectionable, I have to say that Adolin is not in a great place legally. He killed Sadeas in a moment of rage, but he went on to cover up his crime, and I very much doubt he feels any remorse. Though Adolin didn’t kill Sadeas in cold blood, he’s not exactly repenting and confessing after the fact.
I can see many circumstances in which Adolin does evil things. I can see no circumstances in which he turns on his family. The mere fact that someone is willing to commit murder doesn’t automatically make them inclined to join Team Odium, especially when doing so means betraying the people they love, the people they committed the murder to protect.
@184 Gepeto
Renarin is the son of the most famous living lighteyed warrior and the brother of a dueling prodigy. He lives in a culture that prizes skill in warfare above all other Callings. The fact that high-ranking lighteyes can do other things doesn’t mean that those alternatives are respected in the same way, and Renarin knows that he isn’t a “proper” lighteyes. The son of another family might shrug that off, but Renarin is a Kholin, the child of a warrior dynasty. And while his father is commanding armies and his brother is winning acclaim on the battlefield and the dueling arena, Renarin can’t even pick up a Shardblade.
I don’t think Renarin was bullied. I think he was surrounded by love and support, and every day he watched his father and brother do what lighteyes and Kholins were supposed to do, while he tried and failed time and time again. No one had to tell him that he wasn’t good enough; he could see, every day, that he wasn’t living up to the standard of his family. When you fail that often, it becomes a habit, and it becomes difficult to even believe that you might succeed.
Renarin was a failed warrior, a lighteyes who couldn’t cut it as a soldier. In a society that worships war, that made him a failure in life. In the relatively small period of time, he’s having to make the transition from reject to Knight Radiant, from a man who couldn’t possibly be a soldier to a member of an order that defines the meaning of the word “elite”. I think you’re seriously underestimating how difficult it is to believe that you’re worthy or capable of being a living legend, especially when you weren’t successful as an ordinary soldier.
I don’t understand why Sadeas is now suddenly referred to as Torol. It doesn’t seem to fit with how he was referenced in the first two books. Also, I need to know what happened to Szeth!
@163 Cheers! My gut reaction was something along those lines – that if there is no oath betrayal per se, then the spren might live on.
Re Reanarin’s reaction: agree with those whom it irked; given how much he wants to be useful, yet has not been seen as such by the society certainly leaves him lacking in confidence. Dalnar initially overlooking his role would not help matters. I think this is more of a character trait and as @189 points out, this could take a very long time to overcome. Neveretheless, this “fail before trying” attitude is irritating. In this context I also wonder what his mother’s role in his upbringing was? Despite being in Adolin’s and Dalinar’s heads we do not know much at all about Shshsh; which is even more surprising given how much Adolin, for instance, cares about family.
Re Elohkar: on prior rereads I thought that he was spied upon by voidspren/evil spren, but now, come to think of it, he is certainly broken enough to become a Radiant. Given his parentage and his sister’s reputation, it is quite possible that, despite being a weak king, there is some hidden potential in him (Gavilar, Navani and Jasnah have achieved a lot in their respective fields) – I thus suspect him to be a late bloomer, and maybe be of more use in the 2nd arc or maybe by book 5.
Re Resurrections: actually, having read Mistborn and Warbreaker before SA, along some of his other works, I was actually morbidly impressed by how not afraid Brandon is of killing off his characters (I tallied the death toll in Era 1 Mistborn and had fully half of what I consider to be key characters to be dead by the end). I was thus okay with resurrection under certain circumstances – such as Lift using her abilities, and thought it kind of an impressive way to introduce Elsecallers with Jasnah. However, the one resurrection I did not enjoy at all was Szeth’s – maybe it’s his character, or the improbability of him being found by Nale at just the right time and the right spot (though ok, Nale is a flyer too…), but I kind wish he stayed departed. Amusingly enough, I think Nightblood’s opinions and perception of “evil” might be therapeutic for good ol’Szeth… As for tolerance for more “resurrections” – I fully expect Eshonai to survive the fall and am curious if others think otherwise? In fact, I was incredibly surprised in my second reread to realize we do not see her safely hit the bottom. And I am fully ok with that – there are factors that would enable her to survive (Plate, Stormform) and I would like to see her fight off Odium’s influence,or at least see how she develops as a character (cf Marsh).
@140 Heh, I did not think of Nalthis when I heard the name, but Sunmaker also does not strike me as very Rosharan somehow. I definitely would like to know more about this individual, and whether he might have had some visions too?
Re the Shin invasion – completely unexpected for me, but it might make sense that after a failed global conquest one and, very likely, the punishment meted out by the rest or Roshar as a result, one reaction would be to reform the society to be obsessively pacifistic, thus avoiding the possibility of aggressive expansion that could cost the Shins dearly in case of failure (I am thinking the Scouring of Aimia here…).
@162 and @176 As the question of distances was raised, thought to add in something interesting (from the 17th shard forums I believe ) – someone has kindly created a globe of Roshar, where you could see most of the continent being located mostly south of the equator – thus curvature will be an important factor of distance calculation.
On another note, I would also like to know what the factors affecting the squire’s abilities are; I do not think we have enough info at the moment.
Regarding possible errors – given that this is certainly a point of interest for most readers, I doubt that we would see such big mistakes after several dozen beta readers went over the manuscript.
I hope Dalinar’s flashbacks won’t all be battles. Battles bore me. But it’s good to see him snark.
@188 Robert West
Sorry for double posting, but I saw your post right after I submitted mine.
Assassination is already an accepted form of contest among the Alethi ruling class. Sadeas tried to murder Dalinar at the end of TWoK. Everyone knew he did it, even if there was no proof. But instead of shunning him, the other highprinces respected his cunning and ruthlessness. Alethi society prizes strength and ambition, and successfully eliminating a rival is considered an accomplishment, not a sin, as long as you get away with it.
Gavilar united the Alethi through conquest. He didn’t inherit the throne, but he was the best general among the Alethi, and his brother was the greatest warrior of his age. They murdered everyone who refused to accept Gavilar’s rule, and the rest of the highprinces accepted this as a legitimate means of taking power. As Dalinar says in his speech at the end of WoR, Alethi society isn’t about right and wrong; it’s about winning.
Adolin won. He killed Sadeas, and he didn’t leave any hard evidence that could incriminate him in a court of law. Even if every Alethi highprince knew he did it, he’s protected by the same system that sheltered Sadeas after he abandoned Dalinar on the field of battle. When you commit murder and do it cleanly enough to not get caught, you’ve shown that you’re tough enough to defend your own and smart enough to make sure that no one can prove it. That kind of murder isn’t considered a bad thing among the Alethi.
Of course, Dalinar is a different story. But it’s his own integrity that drives him to seek justice, not the demands of the highprinces. They grew up in a culture that’s fine with assassination, and Sadeas wasn’t an innocent victim. He played the game of thrones ruthlessly, and Adolin isn’t at fault for taking advantage of an opportunity to end a threat to his family’s safety. That’s what Alethi lighteyes are expected to do, even if Dalinar believes that things should be different.
Why is it automatically assumed that the phrase ‘Shin invasions’ refers to the Shin invading other nations? It could just as easily refer to the Shin being invaded, over the course of time, by one or more or several of their neighbors!
Gepeto @184:
You are being way too judgmental of Renarin. Here’s the exchange again, with important phrases highlighted:
The critical thing to note here is that Dalinar asked Renarin to lead the new radiants who will be joining. Naturally, for someone who has never held a leadership position, being suddenly asked to lead the very top echelon of the new society, the people who would be at the forefront of the fight against the voidbringers, must be a pretty daunting proposition, and I can understand his voicing doubts about his ability to assume that leadership role right off the bat.
Note also that when Dalinar then explains that what he wants Renarin to do is to discover the extent of his own powers, Renarin is perfectly okay with that task.
Incidentally, I think Dalinar’s original statement asking Shallan and Renarin to lead the radiants would have been a huge mistake, and perhaps he realized it instantly. He, Dalinar, is the Bondsmith. He is the only one who, by virtue of his Bondsmith powers and his position as the de facto king, can lead the radiants. If he has to delegate that leadership role, it has better be to a natural leader, as Kaladin (or Jasnah when she shows up) has demonstrated to be. He can’t be making any more such Amaram-type mistakes.
@179 – I think I get your stance. However, we often question whether characters are “wrong” in their thoughts, beliefs or actions in the rereads. Restricting the possibilities to only something that an unreliable narrator says is limiting, and Dalinar has to be considered unreliable when it comes to the abilities of squires that aren’t even his.
Having said that, I did enjoy the whole, “if Dalinar can be wrong, we could/should doubt almost everything!” Seriously though, as a couple of veterans of epic fantasy rereads like Wheel of Time, Malazan (maybe this one is just me) and the Cosmere series, I think we probably should be skeptics of any information told to us offhand or matter-of-factly but that isn’t supported yet onscreen (or issued via Word of Brandon).
But that’s my opinion. I respect your desire to rely on Dalinar as trustworthy in this case; and I think that is a good point you make about the narration laying it out as a statement of fact and not just Dalinar thinking it in his thoughts. However, I would suggest that the narration in that section isn’t quite omniscient either (Adolin, steady? Did Dalinar really know exactly how the others were feeling, specifically Adolin?), so I don’t necessarily agree that we should take it as gospel.
Personally, if it ends up that there isn’t more explanation or background on squires (when/how they lose their powers, why Lopen was able to infuse when Kaladin was in Urithuru and had been gone for hours, etc) later on in Oathbringer, then I think these are good questions/topics to ask Brandon at a signing or whenever else we can.
@Gepeto 184: What makes you think he hasn’t even tried yet? He very well could have been trying and trying throughout the entire last book or at least the past 6 days to learn his abilities, and has been struggling. If anything, Renarin seems like he is always trying and always failing.
The Adolin 4 on 1 duel scene in WoR was one of my favorite scenes of all time. I loved seeing Kaladin drop in with nothing but a spear and save the day. But I think it is often overlooked that Renarin entered before Kaladin, and although he had a Shardblade he had no plate. Furthermore as a proto radiant his Shardblade was more hinderance than help. Still, he tried. He failed, but he tried.
Then, he proactively seeks out bridge 4, again to try and become a better soldier. To try and learn what he needs to in order to be successful. He tries and tries and tries.
Finally in the scene above he expresses his doubt, but then swallows it and nods, determined again to try. I really liked @195 Alise’s comment about leading as well.
As someone who feels that my own personal greatest strength is to try regardless of repeated failures I can see Renarin’s strength. He lacks confidence. But it can be difficult to overcome the feeling that you are worthless.
@111 AndrewHB
It’s been mentioned that we don’t know how Shardplate is formed, but my favorite theory (and this is 100% just speculation, I’m usually not caught up on WOB so I have no idea if there is any) is that it’s made up of the “secondary” spren. We’ve seen three instances now of radiants gathering secondary spren when they are using their powers in a sustained or extreme way:
1 – Kaladin gathers windspren when he first flies around the Shattered Plains and also during the double storm cataclysm
2- Shallan gathers creationspren often, but most notably when she draws Pattern
3- Lift gathers lifespren when she Regrows a tree to help her sneak into a building to spy on Nale et al.
We know honorspren and windspren are cousins from Syl’s comments, and creationspren/lifespren both fit in extremely well with Lightweavers’ and Edgedancers’ powers and general themes/Ideals.
The obvious hole in the theory is “what happens to the spren after the Plate is formed?” Do they all give up their Physical selves to create the Plate, or do they get to continue on with their lives? Is living Shardplate summoned from nothing like Shardblades? We see in one of Dalinar’s visions that living Shardplate is more dynamic than dead Shardplate, changing far more quickly than Dalinar thinks possible.
Could it not also be possible, that Dalinar recognized Odium’s Champion because he is the creation that produces “The Thrill?” These flashbacks show how thoroughly Dalinar reveled in it. I do not believe that Dalinar will be the champion Odium, as the Stormfather would not have bonded with him were that the case. Also, he no longer feels the thrill.
I believe the book will likely be another from the past. I can’t see Navani advising Dalinar to start any international correspondence with, “I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist.” This isn’t a persuasive entreaty. Just the fact that it is recorded as a record implies that it is recording events. My supposition is that it is more likely going to contain lost knowledge. Now whether the knowledge is tied to surges, some true record of events written in secret, or a biography of the original swords owner’s philosophical views on oaths…remains to be seen. I suppose it could be a recording Dalinar is writing, but I feel like he has a ton of in-the-moment crisis control going on at the moment. I am betting he spends any free time with Navani or scouring his visions for an edge. If it were him, I think we wouldn’t get to see it before he was dead or rather we would see it right before he dies. Brandon is a master at these prologue quotes and they generally follow a pattern. I, for one, would like to see him continue to show us the past, through these ancient texts!
Super stoked for this book! I have re-listened to all the books in the Cosmere and badgered my significant other to burn through the Mistborn novels, WoK, and Words of Radiance. Thank You TOR and Brandon Sanderson, for this amazing preview!! :)
I have another theory regarding the ability of the squires ability to infuse stormlight and proximity to their radiant. Urithiru acts as a transmitting tower for the radiants allowing the squires connectivity as long as the radiant is there. I suspect when The Lopen lost his ability to infuse it was investigated and determined that he first infused when Kaladin arrived at the tower city, then lost his ability when Kaladin departed for home. He had a few days to regrow the arm while traveling over the plains and arrived in Urithiru just before Kaladin left.
Here is the line from WoR supporting my theory. Sorry for the double post
“He sent Renarin with orders to speak with the king and requisition some emerald broams that Kaladin could borrow for his trip. Elhokar had finally arrived, in the company of a group of Herdazians, of all things. One claiming his name needed to be added to the lists of Alethi kings . . .”
@145 blackweaver
Ooh, I never looked at it that way, but – he’s a perfect fit. Did people burn his head and salt his grave? I bet they didn’t.
However, after thinking about the “familiar eyes”-thing more, I also tend to think that he recognises the Thrill. Need more data.
@186 Robert West: The Knights Radiant and the Realm of the Crystal Fabrial!
@190 The LightWeaver:
It’s his first name, that’s all :)
@Renarin being overlooked or maybe not – let me draw parallels to myself to explain my point (I don’t mean to show off, so please forgive me for stating a lot of qualities – I’m merely trying to show how fortunate I am):
I’m thirty, female, married, my physical condition and looks are good and could be excellent if I would put in effort, I’m working for a successful company (my contract isn’t even limited), my Asperger’s is actually an advantage in my field of work (IT), and a childhood IQ evaluation marks me as one of humankind’s top 5% minds.
However, if I stop taking my medication against Depression I make Kaladin look like the Cheshire Cat, and am prone to attacks of crippling self-doubt and occasional breakdowns.
Why? – I was bullied as kid and my first friends (whom I acquired around ~16+) were inconsiderate at a few critical points in a way that damaged me very badly. I’m still struggling.
I’m not writing this to show off, but to elaborate why I’m concerned for Renarin, because I see him in a similar situation. No matter how good his personal situation is, he carries past baggage that will make him very vulnerable.
If Odium had approached 15-years-old-me and offered me that I only had to kill a few people whom nobody would miss anyway, and then I could have friends? Hell, I would have brought my own black horse!
The same obviously holds true to Elkohar, but I’m less sympathetic towards him because I’ve always put a ton of pressure on myself to not let myself go and to keep struggling, and for a large part of two books he has not even tried. I am holding that against him.
I also disagree with @184 Gepeto on this matter – I think you’re reading a lot of things into the story that are within yourself, but not necessarily within the text.
Renarin, however, has tried, knowing he would fail, because he desperately craves to make his family proud, to stop being useless. (I’m not reading my own past into him there, my family was always supportive.):
– Combat training: He insists on acquiring more worth in the eyes of the society by undergoing combat training despite knowing that his epilepsy will most likely render him helpless in the worst possible moment and getting him injured or killed. He seems to consider that an acceptable price.
– The duel: Renarin is the first to jump to Adolin’s help, almost immediately, putting himself in the way of fully-armed and armored Shardbearers in shirtsleeves.
– Bridge Four: Rather than sitting on a fluffy cushion eating grapes, Renarin wants to carry bridges to contribute. Please consider the social status of people who carry bridges before dismissing this.
@@@@@ Various:
“These four people are key.
One of them may redeem us.
And one of them will destroy us.”
Do we have anything, WoB or textual (I don’t have my hardcopies with me, just my audiobooks), to say unequivocally that “destroy us” means destroy the world? As opposed to e.g. destroying the Diagram or the Ghostbloods or the 17th Shard (not sure whether we know who wrote that bit)?
@142 @168 @181 About Odium’s champion, I agree that it may not be someone that Dalinar knows. The “something familiar” that he sees in the champion’s eyes could very well be referring to the Thrill.
I just finished reading Dalinar’s flashbacks from Unfettered 2, and there was this line in one of the scenes where Dalinar was fighting a brightlord, named Kalanor:
I believe Odium’s Champion will be Sadeas. It fits his personality, and death is not a barrier to Odium.
@ALL who are commenting on Nalan and Szeth – Edgedancer has a lot of answers regarding those two. If you haven’t yet, you should really read it prior to reading Oathbreaker.
dptullos@193 – Yes, what Adolin did might be accepted by Alethi society, but its against the Codes, that his father, through the King, had just enacted as laws that the other Highprinces have to follow. If Adolin is discovered, Dalinar will be forced to make an example of him, or lose the other Highprinces.
KiManiak@196 – Its not so much my desire to rely on Dalinar as trustworthy (I readily admit he could be wrong in his information), its that without being able to trust him as a source, there’s not much to speculate on. This is the same process investigators use with leads.
sndmn@200 – I really like that theory.
Muswell@203 – That’s true. If its an in-world document, its Prophecy. Prophecy is not of Honor.
@205 RE: Sadeas: Resurrection in the Cosmere has certain rules. We don’t know exactly what they are, but none of the examples we’ve seen fit with Sadeas’ death. It didn’t happen near a Perpendicularity (that we know of, at least, Its possible there is one at Urithiru, but if so, it would be Honor’s, not Odium’s), he didn’t hold a Shard, he’s not a Splinter, his body has been cooling for at least 24 hours since Adolin killed him. I think its unlikely that Sadeas’ death is one he can walk away from.
@mods: Any chance of having your webmaster install this WordPress plugin?
https://wordpress.org/plugins/mention-comments-authors/
That would allow us to actually tag one another in posts, and receive notifications. Might encourage more robust commenting.
@205 Please no, his death was such a comfort to me.
@207 It doesn’t seem like this thread needs any help. We missed the double hunny, all these new kids need to be taught traditions.
@208 – But most threads aren’t going to have people clicking refresh every two minutes. Getting notifications that someone has mentioned us in a comment will cause a lot more people to visit the site more often.
I almost corrected the young whippersnapper! You’ve got to stake a claim to that Double Hunny! Otherwise GET OFF MY LAWN.
Especially since our comments sweep other threads off the new comment pages like a Highstorm.
I wouldn’t know what to do with a double hunny if I took it.
…
I don’t want to know how that sounds to anyone using a text-to-speech plug-in.
My personal belief is that the the book Oathbringer is an artifact of history just as The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance were. I think it is a story of the Recreance, and the Knights Radiant justifications for it. But that’s just me, and the series is cashed the Stormlight Archives. I think every book will be informed by an artifact of history.
I believe Sadeas will become Odium’s champion. We already saw Szeth raised from the dead, is it to far fetched to think Odium can accomplish the same things a Herald can? Sadeas is to important a character to be gone for good, I’m my opinion.
@@@@@ 189 dptullos
Very well said. Also we are seeing a character that has an illness that renders him completely vulnerable when he has seizures. This is all supposition, however, I had a great grandmother who had epilepsy and even in our society 30 and 40 years ago people tended to look at epileptic seizures in a rather unenlightened way. I would think that Renarin might feel that this debilitating illness makes him less, even though truly it does not.
I always though that eshonai would be odium s champion and that adolin would be choosen by dalinar. Now that i read the passage, it could be adolin like everyone is saying, but what if by some miracle saddeas returns to life and becomes odium s champion. He would be the perfect villain, yet once again.
@195: This is an interesting perspective, not one I had considered. It makes better sense when explained this way. I’ll admit one of my personality flaw is I have no patience with individuals willing to give up without a fight, without trying. Had Renarin try and fail, try and fail, then try again and fail again, I would have find it endearing and relatable, but the fact he thinks of giving up without trying has the opposite effect. Upon reading your post, I do however agree it was ill-thought of Dalinar to think Renarin could lead the new Radiants and even to suggest it. We are dealing with someone struggling to complete tasks and trainings, it seems a tad too much to demand he steers the boat when he is still trying to figure out how to row.
@196: The steady comment… I took note of it. I thought it was a nice touch to illustrate how Dalinar views his son. Adolin, the steady one, the reliable one, the one he can toss anything at and never budges. Dalinar doesn’t consider Adolin might have weaknesses nor that he might not be alright with everything which has happened. With Renarin, I thought the impenetrable comment is meant to signify he never knows what goes on into his youngest son’s head nor can he read his emotions. Oddly enough, Adolin is the one with a secret now, but Dalinar is not looking for Adolin harboring a secret, he is not thinking of Adolin not being able to withstand what is to come: he is looking at Renarin, only Renarin.
The unravelling of the story will be… interesting to read.
On Renarin: What bothers me with the character isn’t so much his characteristics nor his trajectory, as a character, but how he approaches challenges. How he constantly devaluates himself, how he always says he can’t do it, how even when he tries, he is willing to give up if it becomes too hard. It bothers me and it bothers me even more when he can’t see what he does have: love and infinite support. One of my problems is, to me, what he has is so much more important than what he doesn’t have. Thus, his worst handicap, from my perspective, really, is himself.
Also, despite all the great examples listed within other people’s comments, I could never get a real sense of Renarin trying, all which registered is him giving up towards the end, so when he says “I can’t” within this chapter, it irritates me.
This being said, I’ll try to keep a more open-mind on Renarin going into the book. I have had problematic characters within other series, for similar reasons, which grew on me, so let’s see where he goes into this book.
On Sadeas being dead: It has been confirmed he was dead-dead. Also, the FAQ Alice linked in a previous post does explain Brandon’s takes on resurrection. It is a theme within the Cosmere, but he does realized he used it too often lately. He never meant for Jasnah to sound like “a resurrection”, it wasn’t one per say, but too many readers read it this way which, combined with Szeth did antagonize some. Unfortunately, since it did happen, readers have ever since been theorizing on who is not really “dead”: Sadeas, Helaran among the most popular. Those characters are however most probably really dead-dead: Brandon will not keep on over-using the same trope, not when his readers have been complaining about it.
Brandon is unlikely to bring back more characters from the grave within the short term and if he does so, it will be made obvious this is an option.
On Adolin and murdering: I am advising we all remain careful. Sure, the people we have seen are all happy Sadeas is dead. Will other people partake this joy? Also, there is a WoB which states Dalinar would punish Adolin, were he to find out. He may not feel too terribly sad over losing Sadeas, but once he has a culprit, I am sure he will make it sure the law is applied, even if it is his own son, especially if it is his own son. The question now is, how long will Adolin hold up to his secret?
@214 so the law says he would be put to death or exiled (I’m doing a re-listen to WOR and just passed that point) also noticed something small and funny Kaladin mentions his Amaram squad leader earlier in the book and it’s the guard Shallon runs into while infiltrating Amarams home, so I wonder if they will end up meeting again.
@211 The Secret History makes it pretty clear than even a Shard would need to be right on top of a death in order to pull off a resurrection. After seconds or minutes a soul passes out of the Cognitive realm and beyond the reach of a Shard.
We know Odium is trapped on Braize and if he can’t reach the Cognitive Realm near Roshar the death of normal people might be a hard limit.
Torol Sadeas is most definitely not coming back, because (as I’ve said before) if he tries, I’m going to climb in the book and kill him again. I will boot his sorry butt into Beyond so far he can’t remember what the Cognitive Realm looks like, much less the Physical.
So there.
I think Elohkar has a good chance of being Odim’s champion, awkward and clumsy though he may currently be. He’s already had considerable contact with the Unmade (the shadows and whispers he keeps seeing / hearing), and has a lot of angst over how he recognizes that people percieve him. Add to that the inevitable anger and increasing angst, not to mention feelings of weakness and impotence, over Dalinar’s casual usurping of power, and you have the makings of a villain ready to give himself over to the service of a powerful being. He will have the desire to become powerful, and wield the authority that he feels he deserves but simultaneously feels inadequate for.
I read that bit about the shadows and whispers being the Unmade somewhere, but don’t remember where.
Can’t wait to get my hands on the complete book to finish the story. I have book coming on pre-order, but these previews help with the waiting plus reading all the comments puts storyline into prospective as to who’s doing what at certain times.
Why is everyone saying Adolin might be odiums champion. It is quite clear a better choice would be Renarin or however its spelled. He already doubts himself. Hint hint insert darkside talk here.
@214 Gepeto:
Re Renarin. As someone who is highly self-critical and self-deprecating, I can tell you that when you see yourself as useless and failing to live up to your standards as well as what you perceive to be expected of you, you do not feel like trying anything. Cause what’s the point if you are just going to screw up anyway?
One thing to note, though, is the vigor with which Renarin threw himself into his training with Zahel. Zahel comments on him having no hesitation when jumping off the ledge whilst in Shardplate. Someone who is not willing to even try would not do something like that.
As previously discussed, he balks at being asked to lead, but accepts the order to learn his abilities and help the new Radiants learn theirs as well. This is c see completely in character for a man who has never lead.
I, for one, am excited to see how the character grows. He’s got such potential due to his limits and lack of experience.
@221 Renarin spends most of WoR being adorably determined to make the most of his new opportunities.
I think personally that Adolin is most cut out to be a Skybreaker. Personality wise, it fits him better than most of the other types. As he and Kaladin already have a pseudo conflict going, and they seem sure to be on a path that leads them to fight over Shallan’s affections, added to the talk of tension between the Skybreakers and Windrunners on how justice is obtained, well, those be my reasons here.
Plus, by killing Sadeas as he did, Adolin lives more up to the precepts of justice described as Skybreaker attitudes.
I am a bit flabbergasted at finding out that Bridge 4 only has powers when with Kaladin though. I hope that the Lopen, Rock, and others end up getting their own spren soon, or at least powers independent of Kaladin. There is so much more to learn and discover here. While I absolutely detested his work on WoT, Sanderson does a brilliant job of world creating and of building magic systems, and it has never been more evident than in this series.
Re: Renarin’s seizures. How do we know they are actually seizures or “issues of blood”? I know Kaladin tried to diagnose him, but Renarin could have been ashamed of what they really were. Visions. He said he “sees” when asked by Kaladin on what he can do. What if during those times of “seizures” he was briefly seeing the future or something related? Also when he was in the arena, as mentioned by others, he “had a seizure” only because he was holding a sword that had screamed painfully in his head the entire time he touched it.
Re: Renarin giving up. When did Renarin “quit” or give up on carrying bridges, washing bowls, doing all the hard work in a camp? When did he “quit” training with Zahel? Do you not remember him diving headfirst off of the roof, only because he was told to do it by Zahel? I think there is more to him than we can find, and no I don’t think he or any of the current main characters will be Odium’s champion. That vision was from the past, and Dalinar still doesn’t fully understand it.
@223:
But Adolin killed Sadeas in violation of the Codes his father and the King had just turned into the law of the land for all of the warcamps and Highprinces. The Skybreakers, as seen in Edgedancer, are primarily concerned with obeying the letter of the law, rather than the law’s intent. Nalan punishes one of his own Skybreakers in the WoR interlude for killing Gawx without filling our the proper paperwork.
Adolin is in sever violation of the laws that currently govern him. I can’t imagine that makes him more Skybreaker material.
@224:
Kaladin does note that there is something off about Renarin’s seizures, and he needs to look into it. But my understanding is that the seizures were thought to be a separate symptom of a blood disorder that also made him physically weak. And that he’s had this disorder since childhood.
@223: Adolin actions make him the opposite of a Skybreaker. It is important to note that Skybreakers are concerned with upholding the law, not upholding justice. The two are not always the same. Thus, Adolin (and us readers) may think he was meting out justice to Sadeas for his past betrayals and announced intention to continue to undermine Dalinar, but killing him is against the law of the land. Skybreakers will uphold the strict application of the law and condemn him, but some radiant orders (Willshapers?) would applaud his motivation, according to Brandon.
Further, I don’t think Adolin considers himself in a contest with Kaladin over Shallan’s affections. We the readers who are in Kaladin’s mind know he is attracted to Shallan, but he has made no outward moves for others to notice, and I doubt the thought has even crossed Adolin’s mind that Kaladin might be a rival.
Re: Renarin – Yeah, I reject any observation that presents Renarin as someone who doesn’t try, who refuses to contribute or who is just selfish/self-centered; Renarin is clearly a complex fellow and to lazily apply those simple and negative traits to him is just wrong.
Plenty of examples have already been given in previous comments to refute those observations (him entering the 4-on-1 duel and joining Bridge 4 are 2 quick examples) so I won’t dwell so much on Renarin’s past and instead would prefer to focus on what we see/read of him currently in Chapter 2.
On that note, If the cautious reader continues to maintain some questions/skepticism regarding “Renarin-as-Truthwatcher,” then the actual text could be read somewhat differently than the obvious interpretation:
What if he actually can’t teach Truthwatchers how to use their abilities? What if the phrases “don’t know how to…” and “let alone…” have more to do with not being able to fully share or articulate who/what he is and what he is able to do?
I can’t help but dwell on the fact that Ym (who was confirmed by WoB as a proto-Truthwatcher) and the Stump (who has a spren similar in description to Ym’s and is likely a Truthwatcher) started manifesting their abilities by healing others (and, at least with Ym, also did it in a way that is different from Lift’s Edgedancer method). We have yet to see that from Renarin. Just another factor that gives me pause.
Ultimately, I am really looking forward to the day (hopefully via the preview chapters, but possibly via the OB spoiler review post) when we actually get hard evidence on Renarin, and the caution can either be cast aside or be validated.
Until then, the “Renarin-as-Truthwatcher” questioning will be maintained by those (cautious? stubborn? or maybe just overthinking?) few of us still out there that haven’t jumped on that train yet.
Wetlandernw @161:
Thanks for the link to Sanderson’s writing process Faq. Oh, what could have been! Szeth dying for reals and no fake-out about Jasnah. That would have made WoR even better than it is. I am not opposed to one or two carefully chosen ressurections/ extremely unlikely survivals, as long as they are written as significant and not without cost.
Too bad that one has already been squandered on Szeth… I now guess that he would have been the dead character whose flashbacks we would have gotten after his demise.
I do despise super-hero comic-books sensibility where no half-way important character remains dead, though. Never could get into them for that reason, among others, – because when all is said and done everything that happens is largely pointless, as it all gets reset and repeated ad nauseam.
Nor do I understand this seemingly widespread fascination with and reluctance to let go of Sadeas. He was a good villain, but nothing too memorable, IMHO. Surely there is better material for Odium’s champion available on Roshar, or off it, as it were.
Re: recognition of something “terribly familiar” in the eyes, I agree that it is most likely the Thrill. Which, BTW, makes me wonder – in WoK in Dalinar’s visions we were told that Alethkar was the Silver Kingdom specialized in War and that they had something that allowed them to fight without fully suffering the cost of commiting violence. So far Alethi seem to be the only people who experience the Thrill – and the Thrill is clearly a thing of Unmade/Odium – though, perhaps, not so clearly to Dalinar, yet. It does allow the Alethi soldiers to function without as much PTSD as they should have experienced, though. So, is Odium subverting some special gift of the Alethi? Or was that special gift that helped them deal with violence better something else?
Adolin @224:
To be fair, Renarin did stop training with Zahel after the incident in the duelling arena. He did quit.
However, he didn’t resign to idleness, but inserted himself into Bridge 4.
I hope that we’ll see both him and Shallan learning from Zahel, though. Their roles may not be primarily that of warriors, but they still need to be competent in battle, given how terrible the Desolations are.
@229 Thank you for the clarification on Renarin with Zahel. I had forgot that was how he entered Bridge 4. Now of course he has larger responsibilities than before, and I am looking forward to more of his bond with Glys (his cryptic spren – spellcheck?). Looks like he gets to go back to Zahel once again. Do we know the shape of his spren? Shallan’s is a pattern (hence the appropriate name) and Jasnah’s is an ink-like soldier. What is Glys like?
manavortex
Thanks so much for sharing your personal experience in regards to Renarin.
KiManiak
Totally agree with you that Renarin’s spren could be leading him down the dark path and that Renarin may not be a Truthseeker. We have no idea what Renarin is going through with learning what his spren wants him to learn. It could be very bad indeed!
/RantOn
Dalinar may be a great general and leader, but he is not a good father. The way he treats Renarin is reprehensible. He simply will not listen to or engage with his own son. He is much like fathers who ignore their children when they complain about a coach or hazing:
The football player that says he is being worked too hard at practice before he collapses and dies.
The cheerleader who complains that she is being “broken” into doing splits.
The fraternity initiate who complains about hazing and then ends up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning.
Dalinar’s response to all of them would be stop complaining and lead. Work hard and ignore the pain.
Yes, Renarin is loved by his family – as a broken, anti-social misfit – he is loved. As someone who should be listened to and engaged with – not so much. That is too much work and no one has the time. Stop complaining Renarin and try harder. I really can’t imagine someone trying harder than Renarin when he held a blade for a week to bond with it, when in all likely he was hearing screaming and pain most of the time.
Both Dalinar and Kaladin have visions during high storms where they lose control of themselves and babble – we think of them as being strong and blessed. During the battle Renarin, has a vision and babbles and we think of him as weak and annoying? I guess it all has to do with that most important attribute – timing. Renarin is just socially inept and has very poor timing.
For those of you who do not like Renarin, I will quote Shallan, “She sometimes had the empathy of a corpse ..” You are in good company with Jasnah and Dalinar.
/Rant Off
Wow. And I thought the magical system in ‘Warbreaker’ was complicated!
re: Jasnah’s dying being a fake-out.
i really think it’s ‘earned’. what i mean is…as we learn more about Radiant powers thru Kaladin and Shallan, we learn that while bonded to their spren and with enough Stormlight, they are close to indestructible. they can survive a 1000 ft drop. they can survive getting a shard blade thru the arm, them heal the severed life force. so, yeah, Jasnah survives being knifed thru the heart. for a knight radiant…it’s no big deal. we just didn’t know it at the time…
I’d also like to point out that Renarin didn’t quit training with Zahel when he joined Bridge Four. That was his one caveat to Kaladin – that he would do everything with B4 except when he was scheduled with Zahel.
On Renarin and Since we are Sharing Personal Stories:
Several years ago, I battled a sleeping pills addiction. At the time, I had develop performance related anxiety due to self-imposed pressure which ultimately ended up causing severe insomnia. To cut a long story short, I ended taking drugs so I could sleep and soon, I became dependent from the drug. I was unable to even try to go to sleep if I did not have my pill. A year later, as I knew the probability of finding a doctor willing to give me more pills were rather low, I attempted to cure my addiction. I tried. And I failed. For 365 days, I tried and failed. Every single night was a failure. Every single time I tried, I failed, every single day I contemplated the fact my life might be a constant search for more pills. Every day I thought of giving up, but every night, I tried. Again. And again.
On the 366th night, I succeeded. I have since then managed to stop taking pills and learn how to sleep again, even if there are occasional episodes, the battle is never as hard as the first one I fought. As the time went by, it even became easy.
If my memory of the timeline is accurate, Renarin tried to become a soldier for about four weeks before he gave up after the 4 on 1 duel. Sure, he met impressive adversity, but the internal monster I was battling was no less impressive. Four weeks is nothing: I fought for a whole year. A whole year of anger, tears, fear and ragging mad nights trying to battle something I couldn’t see, couldn’t hold, couldn’t understand. Several years of my life gone battling a vibe I couldn’t control.
If you stop trying, one thing is certain, you are never going to achieve your goal.
It has been my motto. My “once in a lifetime” sentence, something I learned as a kid: never to give up. Hence, when Renarin says “I can’t” or when he refuses to go back training after the 4 on 1 duel, I get annoyed. No matter the reason, when you stop trying is when you stop having a goal and if you have a goal, then you better try as if it isn’t the number of times you fail which matters, it is the fact you are still trying.
As I said, I’ll keep an open-mind on Renarin but I wish he were less reluctant to try, I wish he were less quick to quit, no matter what he is forced to face.
On the Renarin or Elhokar as the Champion:
While I do think the desire to be useful could be a powerful motivator to succumb to the easy evil path, I somehow do not think Renarin would fall for it. He is too reluctant and he loves his family, at least as much as Adolin loves it. He may have some characteristics which could be exploit, I ultimately think his family would matter more than his usefulness.
Elhokar is a different matter because he is very self-centered, he wants to be seen as a hero, he wants people to revere him: he wants fame and glory all for the wrong reasons. Maybe it is not his fault, seeing how Gavilar was, but he has grown into becoming this person. Those flaws could easily be exploit and, unlike Renarin, his ties to his family aren’t strong enough to prevent him from harming them. After all, he did nothing to help Adolin during the 4 on 1 duel, he agreed they couldn’t surrender Shards without a fight even if this fight was dooming his cousin. He may not hate his family, but I am thinking he would make himself pass first.
On Adolin and the Murder:
Honestly, it could go so many ways, we could all state one option and not be wrong.
I do however think the next book will highlight just how far Adolin is willing to go to keep on pretending nothing bothers him, to keep on pretending he has no weaknesses, no fears, no worries. I think Adolin will refuse to break, refuse to compromise up until it all crashes around him. I also think the next book may show just how unprepared Dalinar is to find issues with his eldest son, him who had his eyes set on his youngest. Dalinar thinks of Adolin as impossible to break, is he wrong? To follow.
Edit: Small precision on Renarin and quitting: he quit training with Zahel not when he joined Bridge 4, but after the 4 on 1 duel. Dalinar mentions how Renarin has refused to go train since the fight. He did quit, but he did not quit hanging around Bridge 4, as far as I am aware of. Obviously we all have very different perspective on what is “trying hard” and what “isn’t”. I personally found Renarin was too quick to give up.
I am disappointed in myself. I cannot believe that it took me several days to realize who the figure Dalinar saw in his vision. In retrospect, it was the only logical conclusion.
Odium’s champion will be the Stick.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
AndrewHB – I think you are definitely on to something. Shardplate can take the form of the bearer so it is definitely possible. Personally, I think Stick would look awesome in black.
Jasnah was not resurrected. She escaped death by using an ability the reader (and in world characters) did not realize was possible. Thus, she faked her death. This is not an example of resurrection.
Kooz @191. I do not think Eshonai will survive. I think the fall was too steep, even in her Stormform and with Shardplate. Until she shows up in the book as alive, then I will continue to believe she is dead.
Dptullos @193. I do not think it is as clear cut as you say that Adolin would be protected by Alethi society if it becomes general knowledge that Adolin murdered Sadeas. I use the word murdered rather than killed. In his own thoughts in Chapter 2, Adolin calls what he does murder. When Sadeas betrayed Dalinar, it was in a battle. IIRC, Alethi treats actions that occur on the battlefield different than in non-martial situations. I think that was why Sadeas was trying to goad Adolin in the during the highstorm.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@238 regarding Eshonai I’m pretty sure she is still alive considering the following
First it was raining heavily and the canyons act as box canyons so they would have been filled with considerable amounts of water.
Secondly her shardplate was whole before she fell, and it would act as a protection from the fall. Ie 50″+ fall is easily survivable in plate as seen before
Third she was still in stormform and thus immune to the effects of the highstorm and everstorm.
@238 AndrewHB
When Sadeas abandoned Dalinar, it was in a battle where he was Dalinar’s ally. If anything, Adolin’s actions are less dishonorable; he didn’t pretend to be Sadeas’s friend before he killed him, and he stabbed Sadeas in the front, not the back.
But Alethi society doesn’t really value honor, no matter what they say. The rulers of Alethkar value strength and cunning, and above all else they respect victory. When Sadeas betrayed Dalinar and successfully weakened his army, they didn’t condemn him. He might have been a traitor, but he was a victorious one, and the fact that he won was more important than the means he used.
If the Alethi nobility knew that Adolin had murdered Sadeas, they would see a young man who was determined to defend his family, strong enough to kill an experienced and dangerous enemy, and cunning enough to leave no evidence that could convict him in a court of law. Since determination, strength, and cunning are all virtues among Alethi lighteyes, they would applaud his success, rather than condemning him on the basis of some silly Code that only Dalinar really believes in.
Alethi society is about conflict, on or off the battlefield. Sadeas didn’t abide by an arbitrary code of rules, and neither did Adolin. Those who live by the sword often die by it, and those who follow the law of the strong find no court of appeal when they finally meet an enemy who is still stronger. Dalinar is pretty much unique in his belief that there should be a real code of law, rather than a system of justice that exists to keep the little people in line while the highprinces do whatever they can get away with.
I feel like some of these things should have been eased into.
1. Squires? We spent a WHOLE BOOK in the way of kings having Kaladin discover his powers. It was something to be a part of the process. Then all of a sudden Lopen shows up with two arms and we are given one sentence mentioning that “oh yeah all of bridge four has some sort of stormlight ability now, but only when Kaladin is around.” I LOVE Sanderson’s books I have read them all, even the chapter in WoR that is just “I am a stick”. If his publishers can okay that, then they can okay a chapter to have bridge four discover their powers. Who wouldn’t love one chapter from Lopen’s POV?
2. The unmade? This makes sense considering Sanderson’s magic systems have a balance to them, however once again this part of the story seems to be downloaded at us and not as organically introduced as other important parts of his plot or magic system have been in the past.
The fact that Brandon doesn’t ever seem to do this type of thing in his other books makes me feel like this was an editing move, not necessarily his own. Perhaps these chapters are just him getting everyone pointed in the right direction and all the things im struggling with will be fleshed out later in the book.
That said I loved everything else and I am desperate to see the town layout for urithiru. Thank you Brandon and TOR for releasing these chapters to everyone. It was really kind of you. I can’t wait to buy the book.
I’ve always been bothered by Dalinars insistence that he needs to unite the high princes, and now the world. My first thought was that he needs to unite the Radiants. But now, it hits me that the fact of the visions coming from Honor make me wonder if “Unite Them” is specifically referencing the Heralds? Any thoughts, or WoB on that? What was Honor’s involvement in forming the oathpact?
@217 Alice: Thanks – I sleep better knowing this.
@@@@@ 238 – Did we, the reader, really not know at the time that Jasnah had an ability that would let her do what she did?
We knew that it was possible to physically enter Shadesmar because Shallan had done it, and that Jasnah was capable of doing it from what she said. This would remove her from the scene. We knew that Jasnah could stormcast, rendering her capable of leaving a fake corpse in her place so that people would assume she’d died (she wouldn’t have been able to make a particularly good one, as we know she’s not great with organic matter, but given the circumstances it wouldn’t need to pass more than cursory scrutiny). So while we may not have known specifically about Elsecalling, the pieces of the puzzle were all there from the outset. Which is why Jasnah’s escape was earned in a way that Szeth’s escape was not.
@@@@@ AndrewHB 236: I think Stick is too strong willed to become Odium’s champion. He won’t change for anyone!:)
Edgedancer Spoilers Ahead:
Regarding the familiar eyes, I was struck by this passage at the end of Edgedancer when (text whited out…white outed…turned to white…not sure what the correct terminology is here, but highlight to see it) Nale recognizes that he has failed and the desolation has indeed returned,
“In that moment it seemed, strangely, that something within him emerged. it was stupid of her to think that with everything happening, the rain, the winds, the red lightning-she could see a difference in his eyes. But she swore that she could”.
It seems Odium was perhaps having some amount of influence on Nale and that influence could be seen in his eyes. This presence in the eyes may be what Dalinar finds familiar.
@familiar eyes:
I think most characters would find Odium familiar – being a Shard in Roshar, his influence is probably in quite many thing. I bet that if Shallan looked into the champion’s eyes, she would see something familiar as well, after all, Odium influenced her father…
@239 wouldn’t the fact that the canyons are flooded make it less likely that Eshonai survived, given her heavy shardplate? (Although my gut says there is more to her story)
@242 I also wondered that. We know Dalinar misinterpreted the visions before. He could still be doing so.
@241:
The Squires line will surely be expanded upon soon.
RE: The Unmade? They’ve been mentioned at least 7-8 times throughout tWoK and WoR. Not always by name, and not always in context, but the seeding has been going on since the beginning. Many Alethi reference the Unmade as a curse throughout both previous books. Then, during his Interlude in tWoK, Taravangian mentions certain Unmade by name, without telling us they are Unmade, but powerful spren. Then, in WoR, Taravangian’s Interlude tells us that these spren, which give us the Thrill and the Death Rattles, are called the Unmade. I don’t see how its popping up out of nowhere.
I have always thought that Odium’s and our champions will be one of the four main characters in the series: Kaladin, Szeth, Shallan, and Dalinar, as hinted in WoK’s back cover:
“…These four people are key.
One of them may redeem us.
And one of them will destroy us.”
@234 Not to mention Zahel is training him to be a warrior. Even if he had quit training with Shards, joining Bridge 4 would still be him learning to be a soldier.
Of all the currently living Fantasy Authors, Brandon Sanderson, is the best. His books are for all ages.
I truly hope the world survives long enough for me to read this book.
@@@@@ 235 Gepeto
Re Renarin: Thanks for sharing your story and struggles. I can now see why you feel the way you do about Renarin. From my experiences, I see him striving to do his best. My problem with saying that he gave up too quickly after the 4V1 duel, is that he has a spren that he has bonded with and by going into this battle he summoned his Shardblade. As we have seen, this causes pain to the spren (Shardblade). According to WoB, when a spren loses their Radiant, it is worse then losing a close friend. So imagine having the pain of someone who lost someone that was more than a close friend scream their pain and anguish in your head for a week whilst bonding and then training with that daily as well as running into a battle to help your best friend, brother, and strongest supporter only to have this anguish incapacitate you. I don’t think he quit too quickly, I think he was strong to stand even that much anguish.
@253, I was just about to say the same thing. I am amazed Renarin trained with Zahel as long as he did with a dead spren screaming in his head the whole time. Recall the 4-on-1 duel where Kaladin grabbed Relis’ shardblade:
Kaladin only touched it for a moment. Renarin has been dealing with it for weeks, every time he summons his blade. I’m surprised he’s not insane by now.
This might not be whet to post, but found typo. ” Dalinar’s lack of offi ers ”
Peter @255 – See also comments 54, 82, 165…
@235 Gepeto: Thanks for sharing this – I see we have a similar point of view when it comes to trying or not trying. Fortunately, I’m not an addiction-prone personality (I can get un-addicted to pretty much everything, even stuff like food or caffeine, by simply forgetting to take it, and for some reason I fail to connect my shitty physical condition to withdrawal symptoms and just sleep it off… anyhow, I digress. Kudos for getting clean!)
But I’m with 253 on this. I think the duel experience didn’t cause Renarin to stop trying, I think he saw that there was no point in him going through all this any longer because the result (him sucking in that duel despite the extensive training) wasn’t worth the effort (him putting up with screaming spren in his head).
Hmm, that would be an indication against Glys being voidy.. unless it works the same here…
@257 It’s not just that Renarin sucked (which he still would have at least relative to his opponents), it was that he was completely incapacitated. He correctly identified the problem as one that could not be corrected by training and shifted his focus.
No love for the theory of the mysterious guy claiming to be a Herald as Odium’s Champion? No problem. It might be a bit far fetched but we all will RAFO. Anyway, I can see Elkohar as one being influenced by Odium but not as his champion. He may have the motivation but I do not believe he has the will. Odium would destroy him before he would be strong enough to take up the mantle. What’s intriguing to me is, how will Dalinar force Odium to pick a champion?
@244 – Shallan did not physically enter Shadesmar. That uses the transportation surge and that is not one of her surges (illusion, soulcasting). She went only in her mind, as part of her soulcasting surge. Only Willshapers and Elsecallers can travel physically.
@250 – Yeah, but a good question to keep in mind is: Who are the ones doing the watching that are quoted on the back cover? Is their redemption and/or destruction all that matters to this story?
If you have read Edgedancer, you may get a better idea about the “watchers.” And if you don’t mind the spoilers, you can visit 17th Shard and get even more information related to them, as well as potentially lose hours and hours of time on cosmere related discussions…
@258 He was enough of a threat at least to occupy one opponent, that’s why I wrote “sucked”. But yeah, you are right.
@257 It’s less him sucking and not thinking the effort worth the results, but more him not being able to handle a dead insane spren screaming in his head anytime he touches his blade. Imagine being betrayed and losing someone you love and know like nobody else. Now imagine taking that anguish as someone else’s and anytime you touch them you get that shoved into your head in the form of a soul touching, endless scream put on surround sound and played on repeat.
That is what he has to put up with if he wants to train.
That’s what I meant and haven’t been clear enough to say.
His performance will never be good enough to justify what it costs him, and he realised that, and stopped trying. That’s okay, in my book.
@257: I can get… intense with things as others may have noticed. It is something I have to deal with which I am much better at channeling now than I used to be. Fortunately, I am not prone to addiction either which is why I managed to get rid of it. In retrospective, I had it much easier than other people. Still, you need a given dose of will: you have to want it. Badly.
I wish for Renarin to keep on pushing, to not give up on his objective, no matter the circumstances, even if it seems probable he will never be a great soldier, he can at least learn where he can help the best.
I do not fault Renarin for not wanting to draw his Shardblade any longer, I fault him for giving up the other aspects of his training such as moving in a Shardplate, I fault him for not trying to keep on learning with a training Blade. I fault him for having put everything to a halt except hanging around Bridge 4 which never seemed like real training. The examples we have seen in the book have him clean pots, stand guard (playing the dummy with a spear was more like it) and occasionally carrying bridges. While the camaraderie and the feel of “belonging into the army” certainly came out of it, none of it actually looked like actual training. It may be it was there, but it was not featured within the book.
I also fault him for refusing to follow the scholars the one time his father gives him an order. I want him to try a bit harder and to stop fearing he will fail. He will fail, but falling is not what matters, what matters is to try yet again.
And when it comes to the screaming Shardblade, I would argue Renarin had a way to make the screams stop, to control them: drop the Blade. Other people are not so lucky with their own demons: they always scream and they won’t quiet until you fight them to death.
@@@@@ 266 Gepeto
I understand more why you feel the way you do. Fighting ones demon’s is not an easy battle. I have my own that I have defeated and other’s I am working on.
As for dropping the blade, he could have, but he would never have been enough of a threat to help defend Adolin in the 4v1 which was his goal. Also, what about the week of bonding?
I do, however, agree that he should have stayed up on his training with the Shardplate. One thing to note though, is that he is bonding with a spren and is therefore learning surges. The Shardplate would interfere as he would drain it and make it useless. We have yet to understand how and why the Radiants could use it without interference.
Also, side note, IIRC we have yet to have a major section or several chapters from a Renarin POV. IIRC he has only a brief POV in one of the interludes.
I believe that there is more going on and more to Renarin than we have seen. I think he has nice strength showing story coming that’ll be epic/awesome in some way.
Eesh. That was supposed to be directed to 265 not 266.
@103 – Personally I doubt that physical distance is what made the squires lose their powers. That’s just what Dalinar has observed, and so he assumes it must have something to do with it.
I’m guessing it has more to do with Kaladin’s state of mind. Like the the slave brand that won’t heal because it’s how he sees himself, I think the squires are powered up because Kaladin sees himself as their leader. While he’s gone back to see his family, I think he no longer views himself as that leader and has mentally left them behind while he’s dealing with his personal issues, at least for the time being.
Correct me if I am wrong, please. If Renarin is a “Truthwatcher” and sees the future; isn’t it likely that it will be revealed that he is, or will become aware that Adolin murdered Sadeus? I have been wondering about that for several days.
I have WoR and WoK in audiobook format not hard copies yet, so my impressions might be different since I am remembering from having heard them some months ago. Starting them again. There is much that has escaped me, that is obvious from other comments.
Also I have listened to Warbreaker, and the Mistborn series, and while I have Elantris: Tenth Anniversary Edition, and Arcanum Unbounded The Cosmere Collection, I have not listened to either of them yet. Any suggestions as to reading order for a more cohesive understanding?
I have also listened to The Emporer’s Soul,(which I loved), and The Reckoners Books 1 and 2. Appreciate your comments.
@266: I did not mean to drop the Blade during the 4 on 1 duel, I meant he knows when his “screaming Blade” ordeal starts and he knows when it ends. I find knowing the limits of your hardships makes it easier to deal with them. It gives you an advantage over the demon, something you can control. Though in retrospective what helped was actually giving up on trying to control everything… Oh well. Stupid demons. Wish you luck with yours: I fancied for a long time I was beating mine it to a pulp mesh with a great big sword.
Whether or not Renarin heard the screams while he was bonding his Blade is currently unknown. It isn’t clear when Renarin started to bond Glys, Brandon once said “for longer than it was apparent”. Then, it isn’t clear either when a proto-Radiant starts to hear the screams: Dalinar only hears them after he makes the first two oaths… Therefore, there is no conclusive evidence as to whether or not Renarin heard the screams while he was bonding the Blade. If he were, then I do agree, it must have been a terrible experience for him.
Also, I thought Renarin was actually quite brave during the 4 on 1 duel, I loved the fact he intervened on the behalf of the brother he loves, but I disliked how he seemed unable to value his contribution. It may not have seem like much, he may not have defeated anyone nor fight particularly well, but he did distract one opponent, the one opponent Adolin couldn’t deal with. And that was the difference in between victory and badly crippled Adolin.
I do agree having bigger Renarin moments and potentially one or two viewpoint chapters would help giving additional insight onto his character. I just wish he would stop bashing himself constantly: I dislike when characters enter such mind frame.
@@@@@ 269 I would recommend Elantris and then Ars Arcanum. As a side note, the Reckoners series, whilst phenomenal, is not actually part of the Cosmere.
@@@@@270 This is true. Knowledge is power and knowing when your demons/struggles are going to be particularly strong would allow one to be more equipped to deal with them.
You do have a point in that we don’t know for certain when he starts hearing the screaming, however, IIRC, it does state something to the affect of Renarin seeming uncomfortable and wincing whilst bonding the blade.
Renarin does seem to think that he was useless or failed when in reality he did give Adolin the breathing space he needed to win. Part of his issue is the focus the Alethi have on soldiers. His dad is the freaking Blackthorn and his hero and yet he is unable to be anything like him (or so he thinks).
What Renarin needs is to be thrown to the wolves in a “figure it out or die” scenario so that he can realize what he can do and how he can grow. Better yet, a “figure it out or Dalinar/Adolin/Navani will die.” If you ask me, the best would be for someone to die because he fails and after his annoying mental spiral of anguish, he picks himself up and resolves to do better. Because you are stronger if you succeed after failing.
As for my demons, I thank you for your support. I have ground several under my heel and as for the rest… Well, I have an amazingly supportive wife who is slowly pounding sense into my head as to how useful I really am and that I cannot prevent/protect everyone and it’s not my fault.
Gepeto @160:
You make this statement about Adolin that is certainly new to me. Do you mind providing a quote or a WoB to support this?
Man I love this, so hard to wait between tuesdays, I keep reading the chapters like 3 times over then jump back into the earlier books :)
Just a comment on Adolin from WoR, it invoked some interesting feelings for me when he kills Sadeus it felt morally wrong, I think that’s kind of interesting because I didn’t really feel that when when I learned that Shallan killed her Father and there’s a fair amount of similarity, Shallans father tried to have hellaran assasinated, sadeus tried to have Dalinar assisnated, at some level he is trying to protect his Father like Shallan is protecting her brothers. Im also sure it wouldn’t have bothered me one bit if Adolin had been able to get him in the ring and killed him there.
Maybe part of it is that he’s hiding it from his Father who defiantly wouldn’t approve and murder isn’t something you should do on a whim -even when it is as justified as it is since Sadeus betrayed them and caused the deaths of thousands of their soldiers. I feel for Adolin, I suspect this will cause a lot of inner turmoil for him while he continues to hide it. Cant wait to find out what happens.
Also, there is just no way Adolin becomes Odiums champion. He’s to Loyal to his family, and is a good guy, he stands up for the prostitute, he doesnt seem to relish killing, but more the challenge of fighting, i.e. He’s glad when eshoni fights him so he can engage with her instead of buchering the singing parshendi.
one more thing.
Wow Dalinar. So awesome. So callous. At first glance anyway, the casual sword through the neck of the young man. The casual way he just noddes to one of his soldiers to kill the prince. He doesn’t really care why he’s there, but his brother told him too so here he is. But then it’s so interesting that he’s the one to offer not pillegeing the townspeople as part of his bargain with the archer. So there is some mercy there, and when you look back I think the young man was the one with his entrails spilling out so I guess you might fonsider that part mercy, as much as you can when it’s his fault the guy gets disembowled in the first place. He does say something about not prolong the princes death. Interesting, definitely very callous but still merciful in some significant ways.
@273 Ryan
Concerning Dalinar, I agree. It’s great to see the Blackthorn in action. We get to see this masterful warrior decades later after he has had the experience, but fighting effortlessly against the Parshendi. Now we get to see him facing foes who challenge him. Based on this brief POV we can see why he earned the moniker of Blackthorn. I am super stoked to see more. A young Navani, young Sadeus, Gavilar. A Dalinar flashback is something I’ve wanted since WoK.
Ah 270. Gepeto, 235. Gepeto, 214. Gepeto … so very, very wrong about Renarin being a quitter.
There is no instance of Renarin quitting in any of the books so far.
He did not quit trying to use his Shard plate and blade, he simply stopped his training with with Zahel for a week for unknown reasons. He is still wearing both when they go to fight the Parshendi. He is still trying to be a warrior.
He did not quit when Dalinar told him to guard Shallan and the scribes. He was trying to tell Dalinar why he did not want to go with them. Dalinar cut him off and told him to do it anyway .. and Renarin does.
When Dalinar tells him to be the leader of the Truthwatchers, again Renarin tries to object (again for unknown reasons) and uses the forbidden word CAN’T — oh the horror!!! Dalinar again cuts him off and tells him he must do it. Renarin does not quit and I am positive he will continue to try.
If you want example of quitters, the books provide great examples:
1. Of course is Kaladin … He chooses to quit everything and commit suicide… He chooses to quit his oath of protection and have the king killed.
2. Shallan .. She chooses to quit reality and forget about certain events. … She chooses to quit trying to be Jasnah’s ward until she is told to try again.
3. Dalinar .. He chooses to give up the fight and quit being a Highlord and abdicate to Adolin … He chooses to quit the 4 on 1 duel … He chooses to quit following the codes and court Navani.
4. Adolin … He chooses to quit the 4 on 1 duel … He chooses to quit courting and let Navani choose.
All of the above are quitters, but we have never seen or heard of Renarin choosing to quit, unless he is commanded to, his body betrays him, or he is having a vision.
@209 bad manners on my part.
Here it is…
Double Hunny!
Can I play on your lawn now?
@Gepeto: If you look at my history, then you will see that Renarin cannot value his contribution. Yet. He will take time before he stops understanding that he is useless, knowing that he is useless.
Please assume for a moment that his assumption is true and he is useless.
Shardplate? No, dad! Give them to someone who can use it!
Guard the scribes? Those people are important! Someone should guard them who doesn’t get them killed!
Lead the Truthwatchers? They deserve a leader, not someone like him!
That’s very likely how Renarin’s head looks like. It is what my head looks like, a lot of the time.
I don’t think he’s quitting, I think he’s trying to point out that people are making a mistake in trusting him, and then follows orders. And in his world, he is completely right. He is useless. Always has been.
He probably knows by now that that is not true, but he does not understand it yet. Re-learning will take him a lifetime.
@18: there are 10 books with 10 flashback characters and 10 orders of radiants. All of the announced flashback characters are radiants of different orders except Eshonai. Seems pretty clear that she will become a radiant.
Renarin seems to have difficulty articulating his thoughts and feelings to others. I get the sense he is trying to say something about what he is going through, but he stammers and can’t get it out. The more extroverted people around him talk over him before he can speak clearly.
He may be having specific issues that prevent him from doing what others want/expect him to do, but so far he has been unable to explain his actions. Since we have had no Renarin POVs, we are as much in the dark as those around him. Until we can see what’s going on in his head and the real challenges he is facing, I don’t think we can judge him fairly. I feel like he needs a good and patient friend who can talk through his issues with him at his own pace. Unfortunately the desolation is coming and everyone is in frenzied action mode, so Renarin will probably continued to be bulldozed into doing what everyone expects of him, and he will continue to flail around trying to hold on for dear life.
@271: I absolutely agree about needing to see Renarin being thrown into a situation where he has to take charge, where he needs to step up or else something bad will happen. One of my favorite speculative plot twist has always been the one where Renarin heals Adolin from grave injuries. We see how reluctant he is: he does not want to use his powers. What better incentive than to need to use them to save the brother he loves?
As for the Shardblade, Dalinar did feel an unease too while he was bonding his and this was prior to him hearing the screams. Therefore, the fact Renarin wince when he picked up his may mean he is feeling a similar unease or it may be he heard the scream, though I always thought his reaction would have been more stringent if he did. Either way, the story doesn’t exactly say when the screams started precisely.
And yeah, it is good to have a supporting family, it does help. I’m perfectly good today, very healthy and everything, so there’s hope. Sometimes, I wonder if having to deal with it as a young adult prevented me from having “other issues” as an older one.
@272: With great pleasure, here it is: “When very young Adolin was jealous of the attention Renarin got”. It is from a book signature which is why it never made it through the usual channels. It was posted here and there, but it never really caught on as I suspect it clashes too violently with how readers have decide to portrait Adolin. If I am to believe most discussions, the majority of readers think of Adolin as an archetype who will for sure fall for evil and it is impossible he won’t start to relinquish the powers he does not have. Because he stands at the top of the food chain, people assume his only goal in life is to be more powerful, people assume he won’t be able to withstand seeing other people get powers, but it isn’t. It is not what Adolin is after, not how I read him.
Of course, it speaks of early childhood (and those feelings likely do not exist anymore), but it tells us something about Adolin’s character: he is not immune to jealousy and the one time he felt it, it wasn’t because someone was better than him at anything or possessed something he didn’t, it was because little Adolin saw his parents give more attention to his younger brother than to him. Having young children at home, I would say it isn’t long before they equate “attention” with “love” even if it is the wrong association. It may thus be young Adolin really thought his parents loved his brother more than they loved him. It would explain a great deal many behaviors he has as an adult.
I found it interesting and I thought it did give an insight we didn’t previously had on Adolin. While Renarin wants to be useful, Adolin wants to be loved: it’d be neat of both brothers were to talk more often, but I suspect Adolin never allowed Renarin to even glimpsed at those things.
@273: Adolin is clearly in denial right now which is the first phase of dealing with hardship. First, you pretend it never happened to avoid having to deal with it because you actually can’t deal with it. The next phase would be anger. To follow.
@275: The problem is Renarin has put a lot of talk behind wanting to be a soldier: he wanted it so bad, it hurts to see him give up so fast and yes, he did quit. When he decides to stop training, he basically decides it is over. Of course, maybe he’ll pick it up again. If he does, I’ll withdraw my statement.
I disagree with the other examples: neither Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan nor Adolin have quit trying at something they desperately wanted to happen. If they had momentarily lapsed, they still bounced back. Those characters have steadily fought everything which has been thrown at them, they have worked hard to achieve their goals and they didn’t give up because it was too difficult. I can’t think of more persevere characters than both Kaladin and Shallan. Adolin giving up on courting is a tad far-fetched: it isn’t s if he gave up on ever getting married, he just agreed a casual perhaps was a better way to approach it. As for Dalinar, he did not quit, he just decided what he has been doing was wrong and he now wanted to do something else.
@277: But Renarin demanded to have the Shardplate: he threatened Dalinar to commit suicide if he weren’t to be allowed to train. They both know the only way he can train is within a Shardplate. It is true he asked his father if he were sure about giving him Shards, but the fact remains without the suicide threat, would have Dalinar even considered it? This scene is always hard for me: I didn’t feel it depicted Renarin into a positive light.
As I said, in light of a great many posts, I will try to read Renarin with a more open-mind. It maybe you are right: it was unfair of Dalinar to ask his barely trained fragile son to protect the scholars. Clearly he was not ready for this and yes you are right in saying he did try, though he didn’t have much to do.
@279: Well, Renarin is autistic, so expressing emotions and decoding them into other people has to be a challenge for him. I liked he is autistic, it gives him something special even if it makes his life more difficult.
Renarin and Adolin make such an interesting parallel: one is used to be seen as weak while the other one refuses to have anyone sees he even has weaknesses. Odd.
I’d like to see a citation. Better yet, a picture.
You can, however, expect to see the canonical version of some parts of their childhood in OB.
@281: The words I have posted are the exact words as Brandon wrote them within said book. As for a picture, I’ll see if I can get one. The rest obviously is how I am interpreting it.
The next question is the meaning of “very young.” My bet on what Sanderson was thinking is along the lines of, “Four-year-old Adolin was jealous of the attention his mother was giving the infant Renarin” – because that happens a lot. It’s natural for a very young child who has had his mother’s full attention for four years to become jealous when a new baby makes an appearance. Just guessing, but since he has three young boys of his own, it’s a fair possibility he saw this play out in his own house not long before he wrote in someone’s book.
Your mileage, obviously, may vary.
Renarin has tried to become a soldier all his life. His problem is the opposite of giving up too easily: he has to learn that he can be useful without being a master warrior like his father and brother. His family tries to encourage him to try a different job, but he insists on continuing to see himself as a failed soldier instead of becoming a competent ardent or whatever. Of course as a result he has low self-confidence.
There is a chapter from his POV at the end of the last book where he regrows his hand. It is also mentioned that some of Bridge Four glowed during the battle.
@283: True enough. I did interpret “very young” as 6-8 years old and under. In my experience, not all children will feel jealousy towards their siblings, but some do. Stuff which happened to me as a 4 years old child truly did impact several aspect of my future life and thought of parents doting more on one kid than the other can definitely over last the early childhood even if the feelings no longer are prevalent. It is not rare for the eldest to retain mild jealousy towards a younger sibling and Renarin being a special needs child, I can easily see how young Adolin perhaps did not get as much attention as he would have, had the situation been different. I had wonder if the reason he was put under sword training at such a young age might not have been linked to Renarin and I did wonder if it did not create some sort of reaction into Adolin. He does have issues in admitting stuff which bothers him. There is one excerpt from Oathbringer which goes into this direction.
Is it relevant for future plot development? Well, I do not know this yet. I will however state it does not contradict several theories I have made on Adolin’s character. I have considered Adolin could grow jealous if he sees other people develop a relationship with his father and if it happens in a moment where he feels he is not getting the equivalent.
Am I right? Am I wrong? Only the future will tell us. Either way, I thought it was a fun one and it did help get an alternative picture on Adolin, other than him secretly wanting super-powers because it better fits an archetype. Mind, maybe Brandon will go with the archetype, in the end, I do not know this yet.
My alternate OC theory. (Is OC an acceptable abbreviation?)
Mistborn spoilers…
I think Odium’s Champion might be someone, possibly a listener, who is a full twin born Mistborn and full Feruchemist either through birth or through Hemalurgy and bonded to a voidspren. Just imagine an Inquisitor/Lord Ruler that is bonded to a voidspren thus is in possession of a shardblade and plate. Or if possibly Venli were to visit Scadrial and be hemalurgically altered to have full twin born powers.
Still lots of holes in my theory but I will keep going and see where it ends. If nothing else it will be a nice tangent discussion and possibly open other threads of thought.
How I got to this conclusion stems from Brandon’s statement during a Q&A that if one with powers (local investment?) were to travel through a perpendicularity from one planet to another they would not only retain their powers and they would be able to invest or draw on the powers available from the new local.
This is could be important to the Rosharian Champion (RC), remember Hoid retrieved a piece of Preservation at the Well of Ascension (Mistborn: Secret History part 2 chapter 1). He could give this to the RC to help balance against the OC’s power. Imagine the ferocity of someone with Adolin’s or Kaladin’s fighting skill given the additional power of a Mistborn.
A band of Listeners/voidbringers is living on Scadrial? These are mentioned in the epilogue of Bands of Mourning, Marasi has a piece of paper filled with notes of “tales of men with red eyes who visited in the night.” Then there is the visitor Suit gets in jail from an individual with “softly glowing red eyes”. On Scadrial the Set have their breeding program attempting to create a full twin born. Could the Listeners have already beaten them to this goal or did they find/use Hemalurgical means?
Nowhere is it said OC must be from Roshar.
@286
I have to disagree with your theory re: Odium’s Champion (or the OC if you prefer). The problem with the champ being from somewhere else or displaying powers from other places in the Cosmere is with Brandon and his stated aims. These worlds were built to be stand-alones. Although those that are Cosmere savvy will see clues to the bigger picture in these novels the focus is local. Stormlight is Stormlight, Mistborn is Mistborn, and so on. Events on Roshar are going to be front and center. I believe WOB is the stories set in the Cosmere worlds will focus on local events until Mistborn era 3 (Spaceflight). Stormlight Era 2 will be over before the stories start to focus on interactions between different Cosmere worlds. If the OC has a bunch of powers from different magic systems not only would that feel unearned, it would disregard what he already said his aims were. He could of course change his mind, but until I see a main Character displaying powers outside of his or her world in a way that is relevant to the story I cannot believe in your theory.
@72
A very interesting theory. I can see Dalinar becoming Odium’s champion. When it says Dalinar see’s something familar in the eye’s of Odium’s champion maybe he is remembering the Blackthorn from his youth.
@@@@@ 287 I agree with you. The only character that we have seen thus far use any abilities from another Cosmere world is Hoid/Wit.
Gepeto @280:
Let’s say we accept that Brandon wrote the following inscription in a fan’s book:
I am fairly certain that this statement means something very different from your comment that:
Brandon’s statement refers to a specific point in Adolin’s life, only when he was ‘very young‘ ( at age 4, 5, 6..?). Your statement transforms it into a continuous attitude Adolin had as he was growing up (until when, adulthood?). I think you have seriously misunderstood Brandon’s comment, and you may be making faulty inferences based on that misunderstanding.
@290: The words I have written are genuine: I did not make them up. Why would I even attempt at inventing a WoB? I’ll see about a picture, if I can.
As I said, the rest was my personal interpretation. When I used the words “grew up” I never meant those feelings were still existing (I believe I did state I saw no reason to think they currently were still present) nor did they last over a prolonged period of time, I meant they existed. The WoB by itself does not allow us to conclude either way, Brandon did not give a precise age (he had Renarin used the word young to describe Adolin at around 16, so what did he mean by very young, honestly your guess is as good as mine), but when asked to write something with respect to the Adolin/Renarin relationship, this is what Brandon chose to write. I mean, the reader who asked for it wasn’t demanding if Adolin has ever been jealous within his life, the reader was demanding to know something we did not currently know about the brother/brother relationship in between Adolin and Renarin. The fact Brandon chose this very fact to give away must mean something, or not, but I like to think it wasn’t as innocent as it seems upon first glance. Of course, whether or not other readers want to give it any significance is entirely up to them, but I have personally put into my list of “clues which may be used within the upcoming story”.
The reason I brought it forward was because others were arguing Adolin would grow jealous of Radiants and their powers, would desire what they have. It is a very predominant line of thinking which I read on a weekly basis within the various Adolin related discussions. The classic counter-argument has always been: Adolin never felt jealousy within the book, even when he had reasons to, most notably when Kaladin does better than him against Szeth. His initial reaction to seeing people being more powerful than him has never been one of jealousy which is the one argument having been issued to disapprove the idea he would suddenly become jealous of Radiants (mind it may still happen, I have no idea, but it seems less probable). I have steadily used this argument.
The reason I think this WoB is interesting is it does tell us Adolin is not immune to jealousy and it does give us the context into which it happened. Sure, he was young, but I would think if he were sensitive to how much more attention his brother got, then he may get sensitive over seeing the new Radiants develop a new relationship akin to kinship, create a new family, one where his closed ones are invited, but not him. This may be where it’ll hurt or not. It may be he’ll feel excluded from his family and if these are feelings he once had, no matter how young, then they may be very quick to come back with a vengeance.
Thus, if others do not want to give it any credence, it is their prerogative, but my personal thoughts are it does tell us something. Now whether it will be relevant to the future story, I have no idea, but it does follow some of the Adolin-related theories which have been ongoing prior to this WoB.
I always assumed not being able to remember his wife was Dalinar’s curse, not boon, and suspected the boon to be related to his shoulder working so well even after repeated injury.
I’m surprised by the idea of a human champion for Odium as well. I expect a parshendi/voidbringer, since the goal of desolations is wipe out humanity.
Finally, I’m surprised no one has compared Marsh to Eshonai. Ruin had no problem using a “screaming in their head” character as his “champion”. Why would Odium?
@292 I think it’s implied that Dalinar’s shoulder was healed by unconscious use of stormlight.
@292, Caleb
I’m not entirely convinced that the curse is what we’re understanding under “curse”. I think boon and bane are something to balance each other out, to make sure the individual affected doesn’t get unbalanced, if that makes sense? For example, that guy’s father who asked for food to get his family through the winter, and got to see the world upside down for the rest of his life. Turns out, the human brain can adjust to that within ten days… so that’s not much of a curse in my book. Maybe more of a reminder?
@291, Gepeto: And so we clash again (do we?) :D
I am among those who chose to not put any significance in that. While I agree to your statement
but I don’t agree on the vengeance bit.
I can totally see Adolin feeling excluded like the little match girl. However, I think he’s not the type to leash out. This is based solely on my gut feeling, but we’ve got a lot of POV from him, and so far, my gut feeling hasn’t been wrong (not even when it comes to Sanderson chars, although for several characters I simply didn’t have any). I’m aware that this is a poor basic for any argument, so let me try to support it a bit better.
I think most telling in this regard is the situation when Dalinar was about to renounce his authority due to Adolin’s own actions. He meant well, the outcome was rather terrible from his point of view, and he had never intended it. Yet instead of dwelling upon how hurt he was, he simply worked harder.
The WOB you quoted (that we have yet to see the precise wording on – simply to be able to interpet it better) states that he was once jealous of (probably baby) Renarin, however – I think the fact that Brandon chose this as an answer to that specific question speaks volumes, but in my opinion different ones from those you see.
He told us something we did not know: That Adolin was once jealous.
We did not know this because there’s no way to see this in the books!
I can’t imagine Adolin being jealous – I think he would react differently. If he caught himself at that feeling, I think that he would instantly try to shift his cognitive angle.
I can imagine a subconscious process like
and the result is Adolin as Renarin’s fiercest protector.
I think before his jealousy would turn into hatred, Adolin would probably work himself to death because he’d see the cause for his jealousy as his own shortcoming.
You’re invited to disagree (you probably will :D), but that’s my view.
~regards
@287 I know I’m probably way off the mark with my conjecture. Like I said, lots of holes. We have already started to see Scadrian crossover with the appearance of Iyatil. As cool as it would be to start seeing powers start to crossover and intermix I think it’s early to have the amount I stated. However we still have many books to go before the final confrontation, a lot can happen between now and then.
I believe @289 Is correct about Hoid having multiple powers. YouTube Brandon’s 2017 q&a from Krakow he answers it at around 19:30.
Cheers
@294: I feel I need to offer clarifications. When I wrote “back with a vengeance”, I did not mean Adolin would lash out, get angry or actually try to avenge himself, I meant the feelings would come back and when they do, they may be stronger than before. I am basing myself onto the idea stuff which happens to us as children is usually harder to forget and to bear than stuff which happens to us as adults.
For instance, when I was a child of 4, my wonderful eldest sibling did not want me to play with the other kids on the street so she made sure I was excluded. When I got into school, I feared approaching the other kids because I feared they would reject me as my sibling and the kids on the street did (turns out the kids on the street had no issues with my person, it all came from my sibling, but you know at 4 you don’t really get to understand these things properly). Years later, when I did get rejected by people I had approach, it hurt and it brought back those events: what worth do I have if even when I was a little kid who did nothing wrong, who can’t have done anything wrong, the other kids rejected me?
This is where I was going with my answer, but I perhaps did not express my thoughts properly. It was, after all, getting quite long. I definitely agree with you Adolin would not react in anger, I agree with your gut feeling and I do have the same. It hasn’t been within his character behavioral pattern. I also agree with your statement feeling jealous of Renarin (I would think Brandon did not mean baby Renarin, because the eldest kid always has a short bouts of jealousy, but it isn’t worth mentioning unless it lasts for some time, I mean why would Brandon give a WoB which is nothing more than the traditional reaction to any kid upon the arrival of a new baby? It isn’t worth writing down in a fan’s book. In shorts, all kids will react to a new sibling, but not all kids will develop strong enough feelings their parents will identify as “jealousy” and per my personal experience, it usually doesn’t get too obvious until they are within the 6-8 years old range.) likely made Adolin worked harder towards protecting his brother: this however implies he was old enough to voice and understand those feelings. He can’t have been 4 as most 4 years old really have no idea what jealousy even means, they can feel it, but they cannot voice nor understand it, much less try to counter it.
Let’s look at Adolin’s reactions to harsh events, in general: he works harder. You rightly pointed out within your post. So when kid Adolin felt left out by his parents, what did he do? Was he angry? Did he lash out? Did he pull more tantrums? No. This isn’t Adolin. He worked harder. He got into training at a really young age. He tried to be everything his father wanted him to be. He tried to be worthy of his parent’s attention. I have always seen a lot of repressing within Adolin’s character, not of events like Shallan but of fears, doubts and insecurities. He doesn’t want other people to see he has them. He knows they are there, but other must never ever know. He tries really hard to be what is expected of him, what is demanded of him. We see it in Oathbringer: he just killed Sadeas and what does he do? He loses himself into work.
My thoughts are thus this is another piece of the puzzle. Thus, if he ever get jealous, once again, I definitely agree his first reaction would be to work himself to death to compensate. The only times we have seen Adolin lashed out was when he was at the near end of his rope (Sadeas), so if it happens again, I definitely think it will be through similar conditions. Jealousy may just hasten it, I mean how hard can Adolin work himself before it becomes too much?
@296, Gepeto: He’ll be fine, as long as he keeps running.
Gah. I’m concerned for him.
Huh? I edited for one grammar mistake and my post disappeared…?
@297: Isn’t it what Dalinar is assuming? Adolin will be fine no matter what? It is impossible for steady and reliable Adolin to ever stumble? How will Dalinar react upon seeing his picture perfect image of his son being shattered in such a bad way?
I have always thought the story could unfold in two ways:
1) Adolin admits his guilt early on, incapable of keeping it a secret much longer. This worked well with him having no viewpoints until the end of the book (which BTW, what happened to that? so far Part 1 is not following the plan Brandon published a few months back, not that I am complaining, but just wondering).
2) Adolin does not admit his guilt and tries to compensate for it by focusing on everything but the murder. This usually leads to him exploding once the pressure becomes too high. I always thought it made the most interesting story, but it can’t happen without viewpoints as without knowing what is going on inside Adolin’s head, he’ll just look like he does not care or is turning evil as most readers are currently assuming if I am to believe discussions I have read.
But yeah, I’m concerned for him too. It won’t end well for him.
Can’t see it ending well either, not for a character who dies in the original drafts of the ‘way of kings’.
also… Hunny Hunny Hunny!
Gepeto @298 –
What happened is that you misinterpreted the plan, based on assumptions as to which characters he meant and what the colors meant about viewpoint and focus. Don’t worry, you’ll like the book.
@299: On Adolin dying, you might want to read this FAQ:
http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/467
He speaks of Adolin. Yes, he did die, but this was in WoK Prime, so quite a long time ago. He also mentions how his re-wrote the story from scratch afterwards, so any plans he might have had to kill off Adolin, that was so long ago it is no longer relevant.
@301: But the plans Brandon published never allowed for four characters to have viewpoints within part 1: it has always been Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin. He changed the outlay for other parts, but part 1 has steadily remained the same. Sorry for bringing this up, but a few people have been wondering, not that any are actually complaining, but let’s say we are curious.
My reference is the plan he published within update #5 and the comments Brandon had onto those threads. I am not aware of any later plan.
I am quite pleased with what I have read so far, but thanks for saying I am likely to enjoy the book. Tomorrow will be a torture.
@@@@@ 188 Robert West
I understand exactly what you are saying Robert. I was just thinking about unlikely suspects, so to speak. The ones we would think would never become OC. However it is obvious that Wit is much more than what he appears to be and I enjoy his wit and sarcasm very much as well as his poetic abilities. He seems to guide people he has affection towards.
Another person mentioned Lopen, and I agree. Lopen is not someone who I could see becoming evil. Also Rock is one who I can’t see being that person who could become OC.
We also know that experiences can change us, especially if they are horrific happenings. People in real life, and characters in books become broken.
Some are able to survive brokenness and remain intact and others don’t.
One of the things I have found out through experience as having done a little writing is that characters we create actually let us know if we want them to do something that is not true to who they are. It is a strange feeling.
Your characters will haunt you if you try to write something that they will not do.
I look forward to listening to Oathbringer when it is out.
This is such an awesome experience here. I have never been involved in this kind of forum and find it immensely satisfying to be a part of.
There are so many nuances of personality within the characters that reading every comment is a great help.
@302 I’ve read the FAQ as it’s where I got the info : )
I do realise things change from draft to draft all the time and you only have to look at the diffrences inherent in Kaladin to see how profoundly they can alter… that said he was always a central character to the plot and arc of the Starlight archive, whilst Adolin was not. That doesn’t mean huge sweeping alterations to the fabric of the storey aren’t possible where he’s concerned, just that he always seemed like a side character to me and so it made sense when I learned of his characters origins. Your mileage may vary. I do like the character of Adolin though, just don’t get the impression he central to effecting any form of change in the storey outside of Dalinar’s arc… so far that is!
Has anyone considered Teft as OC? I don’t see it as very likely, but knowing Brandon, one of the people we don’t consider “likely” will probably be it. Him or Nan Balat…
@304: Brandon compares Adolin to Spook within the FAQ: a character he did not initially planned on writing but grew up outside of the original planning. He also said we can expect another one of those within Oathbringer. YMMV, but I never considered Adolin to be less important than Dalinar or anyone else: he has been one of the characters we have been steadily reading. His story arc in WoR was actually bigger and more active than Dalinar’s (long time since I’ve checked the word count, but it felt bigger and Adolin definitely had a stronger presence within the book than Dalinar). It also ended with one massive cliffhanger and he has been a the core center of most speculative theories since the release of WoR. No other character has generated as many discussions as him, he is one of the most anticipated character arcs within Oathbringer, so I’d say he is pretty central right now, no matter what the initial plan might have said.
Obviously, all readers mileage may vary, but I would advise caution in saying Adolin can’t be this or that merely because, back in WoK Prime, Brandon actually killed his character. I would also say back within his very first drafts, Dalinar had no sons, just a nephew. In WoK Prime, he also had three sons, Adolin wasn’t even the oldest. Things change and the SA we are reading seems so different than the one he wrote some 15 years ago, I wouldn’t base any speculative theories on it.
Adolin’s character can be anything the author wants him to be: he can revive this Blade of his and become an Edgedancer even if Lift is already one, he can bound another spren and become a Radiant from another order, he can never become a Radiant and deal with it, he can go into exile to never be seen again, he can even ended being recruited by Taravangian, misguided and used against his will, he can turn evil and fall to the dark though I think it unlikely based on how his character has been so far, he can even die, but I wouldn’t discard any idea on the basis of the book planning.
See, three chapters into the book and most of us had already got the planning wrong… speaks length, I think.
@Gepeto, I actually really like Adolin, but I wanted to warn you that some of your comments make me want to see less of him. IMHO it is possible to weaken an argument by arguing too vehemently for it. I applaud your passion, but just wanted to give you a heads up that your comments, with their single minded devotion to Adolin, may be having the opposite effect that you desire. Which is too bad, because I actually agree with you on a number of things, such as hoping Adolin and Shallan work out, and believing Adolin truly has a good heart. You can, of course, continue to comment however you’d like. This is a welcoming place where we are all free to share our relevant opinions. I can only speak for myself, and maybe it is just me, but I just wanted to let you know, in a friendly way, that your arguments for Adolin generally make me think the opposite of what you argue.
Anyways, it is now 9:00 A.M. on Tuesday morning!!!…Unfortunately I live in a time zone where the article won’t come out until 5:30 P.M. my time.
Waiting for the next chapter. hate the time zone difference! :)
@298, Gepeto: I see Adolin like this, just… not funny.
I see him definitely going towards #2, trying to keep the lid on the situation until the pressure cooker eventually blows up in his face. I think he knows how Dalinar would react to what he did, and while he himself is being perfectly fine with what he did (Sadeas had it coming, and Alethi society norms encourage that sort of behavior), I think that he will try to shield Dalinar from his actions.
@298, 301: What published plan? references?
I’ve been trying to keep up with this massive set of comments – giving me flashbacks to the glory days of the WoT re-read – but I’m not sure whether we resolved the early discussion of whether or not Taravangian was the old man at the table in the Prologue during the King’s assassination. In case it has not been fully resolved, the answer is – yes. Taravangian discusses being there in his big disclosure chapter in WoR.
RobMRobM @312:
So, I guess, one of the 2 women could be T’s advisor Adrotagia? Difficult to imagine Navani being the other one, because I can’t see her keeping mum and not shedding some light on the situation in WoK/WoR, if it had been her. Not Jasnah either – we know it from her PoV. So, who?
Also, it is really interesting that Gavilar trusted nobody in his family with his far-reaching plans.
@313 – I like it. He wouldn’t be able to attend without some type of supervision.
RobMRobM @314:
But T wouldn’t have needed a supervisor _yet_ would he? I understand that he only visited the Nightwatcher _after_ Gavilar’s murder. Still, she is the only female scholar/advisor connected to one of the men who we know were in that room…
@308: I don’t usually speak of Adolin unless it is relevant to the chapters at hand. It was relevant this week, it wasn’t relevant last week, it may not be relevant later today. I don’t understand why you say my comments make you want to see less of Adolin, this is an odd one to hear… Can you care to expand? Which part bothers you? The fact I speak about the character or how I am currently reading him? If it is the first, then I can try to drop the focus some, but if it is the later, there is not much I can do. Bear in mind I write a lot of my personal impressions. I’ve been around a lot and I am well aware half of my argumentation usually do not go down well with most casual readers. It takes some re-positioning to read Adolin the way I do: I cannot expect all readers to agree with me, but I am currently maintaining my positions. Nothing I have read so far, by it in excerpts or the released chapters, has disapproved it or made me think I made a gross mistake with my reasoning which isn’t to say I didn’t, only time will tell.
PM me if you prefer.
@309: I think we may read Dalinar speak of how he intends to deal with the culprit which will only make matters worst. Number 2 definitely sounds more likely, at this point in time, I think. We’ll see at 9AM if there is more, but I suspect we will read mostly Kaladin and Shallan this week.
@310: The plan Brandon published within his Stormlight Archive #3 Updade #5. All the threads are on Reddit, just go into the Stormlight Archive sub-Reddit, to the right, you have the links. He published two plans (within update 1 and 5). Part 1 has always been identical for both plans and it never allowed more than three viewpoint characters, hence my questioning. I really do not see where we might have misinterpreted it, so something about the plan obviously eludes me.
Brandon confirmed early on Adolin was one of the tertiary characters, but never said which one. With the latest plan, all tertiary characters had viewpoints only in one part out of five and this, as far as readers were aware, included Adolin. When asked about it, Brandon said Adolin wouldn’t have viewpoints until the end of the book. Obviously, something changed in between then and the final version of the book. I was curious at to how it happened.
@316, I’m just gonna kick the hornet’s nest here, but I’ve been following the Adolin conversation but seeing as I accidentally set off a minor controversy ona different thread because I think Adolin is boring and generally skim through the battle heavy parts (which many times feature him), the direction this has taken has amuses me. People are very attached to his character it seems, and that’s fine. I’m probably attached to totally different characters (Jasnah is my girl, and I stopped reading the book for several weeks when I thought she was dead, in small part because I was so pissed off – although I think the clues were there to suggest that she survived).
But my first thought when I first read of him being the OC (which I had never even heard as a theory until now) was, ‘oh man, no way, he’s too boring for that’. And by that what I mean is it just seems too…obvious or too easy of a narrative ‘twist’.
To me – at least for the first two books – Adolin kind of takes the role as the ‘badass normal’. He doesn’t have a particularly traumatic past (some possible jealously nonwithstanding, although I would like to know what happened to his mom), he (so far) doesn’t have particularly special abilities outside of the norm (although that may end up changing if he does end up bonding his shardblade), wasn’t super high up in the political schemes, etc. And that’s generally a pretty useful story-telling function so I don’t begrudge him his presence in this book, but he’s just not the one I’m the most interested in. Although he did get more development in the second book so at least we got to see him do more than act like a typical fantasy-bro (dueling, courting, being a generally good guy but at the same time, felt like a lot of characters I’ve read before).
Sanderson usually does a really good job of taking what seems like a standard trope/character, though, and doing something really interesting with it, so I do look forward to seeing what he does with the character. I think watching him deal with his murder of Sadeas (which I don’t quite fault him for, really – I think you could say he was at least partially provoked, and while he probably should have kept his temper and killing people is wrong, I don’t think that kind of crime of passion against somebody who left his family to die means he’s going to serve Odium).
Anyway, can’t wait for the next chapter!
@314, 315:
I don’t think its been determined exactly when T went to see the Nightwatcher. The Diagram refers to creating a Truthless to use as a weapon. Some people think T actually created the situation that turned Szeth into Truthless, which, would, of course, predate Gavilar’s death. But others view that as crafting a weapon out of the existing Truthless Szeth, which would mean he could have visitied the Nightwatcher after Gavilar’s death.
Amaram for odiums champion
After careful consideration, I have determined that Sadeas’ murder is going to be traced back to Kaladin.
Sadeas was killed with a knife to the eye, a move used “an armored man wearing a full helm,” and is a move that Kaladin used to kill his first Shardbearer.
Dalinar heard Amaram’s version of the Shardbearer fight, in which IIRC Amaram said he stabbed the Shardbearer in the eye
Dalinar knows that Kaladin, not Amaram, killed the Shardbearer (presumed to be Helaran).
Dalinar, to be honorable, will provide this evidence if asked for it.
Some bigot with no knowledge of Radiant ideals will draw all the wrong conclusions and end with the idea that Kaladin, who has all the right motives, killed Sadeas, and then we will have some scene in which Adolin confesses to save Kaladin
Szeth for Odiums Champion.
We don’t know yet that Odium’s champion is not already chosen, though highly unlikely it could be someone from a previous desolation. I don’t believe Odium can choose his champions from among humanity though as they are the children of the shard of Honor. I personally believe it has to be from one of the voidborn, a Parshendi. In that case I would say Eshonai. She has shards, and from the vision we see the champion wearing dead black shardplate and Dalinar knows her so that could be what sparked the resemblance to his mind. Alternatively I would have to say Venli – she is evil enough and Dalinar would have met her at some point in his early dealings with them.
As to the matter of reawakening shard blades:
I have speculated on this a lot and my theory is that it requires a Bondsmith for the process to work. Then the blade in question must be matched with someone who is “eligible” to join the same Radiant Order that the blade originally belonged to. The Bondsmith can then forge the broken bond anew to the radiant’s broken spiritweb as they speak the Ideals of that Order. Finding out what type of spren the blade is (Honorspren, Cryptic, etc.) and then knowing what Order those spren type belonged to, paired with finding someone who could potentially join that Order and can sync their essence to that spren to reforge the broken bond – yeah, that sounds like quite a hard task yet a possible one. It’s the best theory I have on it so far. A few points that my theory is based upon:
– Syl explained to Kalidin that it takes 10 heartbeats to summon a dead blade because they have to be resurrected each time by syncing their essence to the one summoning it.
– The Nahel Bond is formed by the spren bridging its essence to the spiritweb of the individual. (following is theoretical on my part but I have a strong suspicion) A person must be broken in some way in order to be bonded, just wanting to be a Radiant, being honorable and saying the words is not enough, not anyone can become one. Kal was broken by the death of Tien / by failing to protect – that made him eligible to be bonded by an Honorspren, a Cryptic could not have bonded him because he wasn’t broken the right way. Shallan, however was broken by living a lie and rejecting the truth of reality – this is the realm of the Cryptics and what enable her bond to Pattern, again, she is incompatible with the Honorspren even though she has the same desire to protect as Kal does. The bond is directly influenced in the way that someone’s spirit is broken.
– When a Radiant dies while upholding the Ideals the bond is released and the spren returns to the cognitive realm and is free to bond another person who meets the requirements of their specific Order. However, this is not what happened during the Recreance. The Knights abandoned their Oaths, willing the Blades to remain where they were left and walked away. Since they were left in blade form the spren were no longer with their Radiants, and when those Radiants died the bond could not release them fully, they are trapped in physical form unable to manifest outside of it because the bond is missing. Each time they are summoned back they have to be synced to the person’s heartbeat which is not a true bond, hence the screaming. The only way they are able to be dismissed is because of the gemstones in the hilts (which I suspect traps them inside when “dismissed” since we know that spren can be caught in gemstones), without the gems the blades could not be “bonded” to the person wielding it and it would just be carried around the same as any other weapon.
– Finally, the theory of requiring a Bondsmith is probably the easiest to swallow as they literally forge Bonds. I believe this can be extended to the Nahel Bond as well, even though it would never have been done in the past as no KR ever abandoned their Oaths before the Recreance that we know of. Still, the Order of the Bondsmiths I believe holds the key to resurrecting the dead blades, and more specifically, I believe that Dalinar is the only one of the 3 Bondsmiths that can do this because of his link to the Stormfather. My bets are on some point in the story Dalinar figuring this out and by resurrecting his “children” the Stormfather puts his full trust and support behind Dalinar which would factor GREATLY in his ability to face Odium’s Champion.
Well, that’s my theory at least, hope it made sense to at least some of you. Let me know what you think.
The punching of Roshone aas perfect.
Note: Spoiler whited out by moderator.
@@@@@323: Please don’t spoil the next chapters on the wrong thread.
But I do agree with your second sentence.
@@@@@ mods: you covered the wrong part of @@@@@323.
Where is the freaking link to this stuff? I had to google oathbringer chapters to find this(ese) articles. boo!
@@@@@ 319 Chipbap1207 Ohh, Amaram for Odium’s Champion. That never occurred to me. Hmm, he certainly has the arrogance to believe the end justifies his means. Very possibly so. However as time goes on I tend to think that Elhokar is a more likely candidate for that role. He is a spoiled, petulant person who has no real allegiance as far as I can determine. I tend to agree with Gepeto’s statements of him on #235. But honestly, it is too early in the story line for me to really fix anyone in that role, yet!
There was a brief explanation in WoR from Syl explaining that Kaladin had destroyed his oath, and speaking the 2nd oath rekindled it. So seems fairly straightforward to “rebirth” a sword. Sanderson said it was hard, and that there is a missing factor…can’t wait to find out the specific mechanics!
I just reread both WoK and WoR. I found lots of foreshadowing I’d missed in earlier reads, but nothing to suggest Adolin will turn dark. A while back I read a thread suggesting some Radiants wouldn’t be bothered by a murder at all…so I don’t think Adolin will go dark, unless Shallan goes dark first.
Kaladin could restore the bond with Syl because he was the one bonded to her. The knights who bonded the dead shardblades are long dead.
I’m so glad that they addressed squires! While rereading the before chapter bits about the orders, my sister pointed out Windrunners having squires, and explained that she thought Lopen was likely one of those, rather than a Radiant himself.
As for Dalinar’s vision, maybe I’ve missed/ forgotten something super obvious, but- why does everyone seem to think Odium’s champion will be Adolin? What is there to suggest that, apart from Dalinar recognizing the eyes? Because, let’s be honest, there are a lot of eyes Dalinar could recognize, and I would think that if it were his own son’s eyes, he would notice. So, if there is something I’ve missed, please inform me, and feel free to ignore my own speculation.
Honestly, I’m thinking….well, I hate to say it, but Kaladin. He does stupid things, and nearly got Syl killed already. But, moreover, I hark back to the back of WoK, in which, after talking about Szeth, Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar, it says “One may redeem us. One will destroy us.” Or something like that. So, I don’t think it’s too far of a leap to say that one of them is going to be the champion of Odium. And of the four, I feel like, unfortunately, Kaladin makes the most sense. Not that the others aren’t capable of such a thing- they are. But, my first thought is Kaladin.
If we’re talking about the big 4, I think Shallan is actually the most likely to be the destroyer. Kaladin and Szeth have already had their brushes with darkness and have sort of broken through them. Dalinar has become the soul of Honor, can’t see him going that way. Shallan however has her fingers in alot of pies, some of them not very scrupulous. Add that to the fact that her Radient order takes a rather loose view of their oaths and it seems that she could be placed in a situation where problems become more likely. It may not even be intentional or malicious.
Re: the wars with the Shin.
I was just commenting on the stormceller group on Facebook last night on the line from way of kings where Szeth thinks to himself that if he dies, the shamanate would come collect the honor blade from whoever killed him. We were laughing that it wouldn’t be much of a conversation. It does make me wonder, though, if there were a truthless decades or centuries ago. If so, and he or she died, I could see the Shin going to war to get the honor blade back. And if the shamante were all trained in the other honor blades, the war could get very messy. Thinking Aeil going after Cairhein level of messy
sorry if someone has already said this and I missed it but:
I have seen a lot of speculation that Adolin might be Odiums champion. I have a different thought, what if it were not Adolin but Elhokar? We have seen that Elhokar seemed to see symbol shapes in his mirrors and out of the corner of his eyes like Shallon did before she bonded with Pattern. What if Elhokar has the potential and out of frustration (or jealousy or anger) he joins sides with Odium instead. Or, let’s face it this is Elhokar we are talking about, he is tricked into joining Odium.
I am about 80% sure it will be either Venli or Eshonai for Odiums champion, not a human. Remember, Humans, Aimians, Shin, etc. were all created by Honor, not Odium, so he cannot claim those races, he wants to destroy them. The Listeners (Parshman/Parshendi), Unmade, etc. are voidborn, created by Odium, those are the races he has direct influence over, they will be who he chooses his champion from.
Adolin I believe will join the Order of the Dustbringers eventually, look in the Ars Arcanum, look at the divine attributes associated with Chach, the patron of Dustbringers: Brave / Obedient. Sounds like him doesn’t it. The murder of Sadeas has broken Adolin which puts him in the position of being able to bond a spren and join the Orders. Mark me, he is FAR more likely of joining the Radiants than of being claimed as a champion for the god his entire race opposes.
Unfortunately not. I got us a WOB about that:
Q: When Adolin snapped, I noticed your wording. Those… The term snapping…
A: No. Good question. He did not gain Allomantic abilities.
Q: Well – Spren bonding abilities…?
A: Well no. That was not used magically.
I don’t understand the fascination with Adolin in some of the comments above – it is somewhat out of proportion to his role in the new chapters released so far. But it has got me thinking. He’s a very flawed character – he’s impulsive and clearly not honourable in his heart, and in my view certainly does not deserve to be put on a pedestal.
I think this conversation between Sadeas and Iolai captures a large part of Adolin’s internal drivers and motivations quite well:
From WoR Ch29:
See, the thing is, Sadeas GETS Adolin.
Just from the excerpt above, a huge chunk of the core of his personality is laid bare:
– Brash
– Hotheaded
– Easily Goaded
– Quick to Anger
– Cannot control his emotions
Bingo. If only Sadeas realised how right he actually was about this, he might still be standing.
If you read Adolin with these traits in mind, its easy to see that at the times he has acted honourably, he usually does so NOT because it is necessarily right, but primarily due to the expectations placed and imposed on him. There are exceptions and he is learning – but there’s a distinctly unpleasant aspect lurking in there.
That’s not to say Adolin is just a one-dimensional angry man hot-head – he’s far from it. He tries to do the right thing (usually). He can see that his father’s insistence upon adhering to the codes has a point and purpose. He jumped to the defence of the woman in the market in Sadeas’ camp. He stayed in prison in support of Kaladin because he perceived that was the right thing to do in that case. He’s also “young and handsome, and an heir to the realm” and all that stuff. So his upbringing has taught him how to get on well with people and mask that angry impulsive core when appropriate. And I agree that it is that multi-dimensional aspect that makes him both contentious and interesting to read.
Also – just adding on to the “cannot control his emotions” point: This is reflected in his impulsive actions ALL the time. At one extreme, Adolin flat-out brutally murdered Sadeas when he had the chance, and at the other end of the spectrum, we’ve seen his continual roving eyes – he has upset every woman of rank in the war camps before the end of book one, and later when he’s on the date with Shallan in the restaurant, he’s even checking out the waitress’s backside!
From WoR Ch49 (emphasis is added by me):
Its a small thing, but he doesn’t even realise his impulse/testosterone has offended the woman he’s courting! Shallan ignores it during the date for her own reasons, but its not about her – its about him.
So… where is this going and what am I trying to say? We haven’t seen him when the chips are truly down in his relationships (okay, apart from plucking Sadeas’s eye out, that is!). Yes, he had a big argument with Dalinar in TWoK, but Dalinar was clearly in power and control in that situation – he didn’t dare take it any further. But his relationship with Shallan has been almost superficial so far. They’ve talked a little about their priorities and ok, even discussed sh*tting in shard plate, but they haven’t suffered together and the relationship hasn’t truly been tested (yet). I truly wonder… can it survive suffering and lies? I don’t see him ever being violent towards her… but I just don’t think that they can really last.
@329: I do not believe in Kaladin as Odium’s Champion anymore than I believe in Adolin being him. One of my theories is young Dalinar was perfectly suited for it and nearly got there, but he has moved forward. I may go as far as the reason Taravangian wanted the Blackthorn, but not “new Dalinar” may be linked to it, but this is a puzzle lacking too many pieces yet.
@333: I never liked the Dustbringer theory: it seems too contrived and I don’t see why it is interesting to have Adolin join their order. I’d rather he remains a non-Radiant because I am failing at seeing the progression and the development such a path would bring in him. What does he have to gain if he joins they order except for “super-powers”? Super-powers for the shake of it aren’t interesting, not if they do not come at the end of a worthy progression and I don’t see it with this speculative story arc.
@335: For someone who opens up in saying I don’t understand the fascination with Adolin in some of the comments above you sure wrote quite a chunk of text on the matter… I will briefly say Adolin’s character, despite not being one of the major ones, has caught the interest of a given portion of the fandom. I think it may be difficult for those not having been involved in it to truly realize how much his character has been talked about and how often his “future” came across within various threads. Within those chapters (1 to 3), the reason he is so often mentioned is because “Adolin will become Odium’s Champion” has been a long lasting theory, so when Dalinar saw a familiarity within the Champion’s eyes, many took it as fuel to throw into the fire of their personal theory. It also got those disagreeing with those theories, such as myself, to express ourselves.
What I have always found amusing is reading so many people arguing how one-dimensional Adolin’s character is while nobody is able to get to a consensus on his personality, core motivations and even better, best potential Radiant order.
For the rest, I do think you are reading way too much into Sadeas’s one comment and you are reducing Adolin’s character to one emotion. Yes, Adolin is emotionally driven and it makes him impulsive, but you write it in such a negative way. Your prerogative, of course, a character can’t please to everyone, but I would argue the reason Adolin is screwing up with girls and not realizing is the same reasons why he is not processing the murder: he can’t. There is a whole side of him I feel he just can’t allow other people to see and it has caused him to destroy his chances at romance just as it is preventing him from dealing with the Sadeas affair.
Personally, I love Adolin and one of the reasons I love his character so much is I feel he has such potential for amazing character arcs and growth. It isn’t I dislike the other characters, but I feel their potential is just not as big, but YMMV.
@336 Gepeto
There are probably several reasons that Adolin was screwing up with girls, but the biggest one is simple; he wasn’t being himself.
On Adolin’s first date with Shallan, he does his best impersonation of an ideal Alethi lighteyes, talking about the appropriate topics in the appropriate way, just like he’d done a thousand times before. He wasn’t dating her so much as reciting his lines in a script that society wrote for him. Adolin would talk about his glorious deeds as a warrior, she would ooh and aah, and both of them would fit neatly into their proper role. Until Shallan snapped him out of it by asking an inappropriate question, Adolin was bored and going through the motions. His previous girlfriends had probably sensed that he wasn’t paying attention to them, even if they didn’t know how to get him to stop playacting.
Adolin wasn’t necessarily bored by every woman he was dating, but he was very tired of the entire dance, the endless repetition of the same prescribed moves. When he meets a woman who won’t just let him go through the motions, he becomes very interested in her. I believe that a large part of his interest comes from the fact that Shallan is digging below the surface instead of just letting the strict expectations of their society dictate what she said and did. She’s making him work for it, rather than just allowing him to repeat generic stories about glory in battle. Now that he’s engaged in a real relationship, not a Proper Alethi Courtship, we can see that he can be quite thoughtful and caring when his heart is involved.
Adolin is impulsive. He’s also disciplined and dedicated to doing the right thing. Having contradictory tendencies doesn’t make him a bad person, just a person. And it’s worth noting that the biggest example of Adolin’s impulsive tendencies- his murder of Sadeas- wasn’t contradictory at all. Adolin loves his family, and he wants to protect them. Sadeas threatened his family. He may have attacked Sadeas in an impulsive and sudden manner, but his actions were in keeping with his own principles and beliefs, particularly his belief that protecting his family comes first.
@337: I agree with everything you said, except for a few minor details. My thoughts are Adolin has issues with showing his deeper self, the part of him which isn’t inline with Alethi expectations. Ladies expect to meet a bragging soldier revering war, so he acts the part, but deep down something is not quite working. While some of his problems may be linked to boredom, I think he just can’t led people see all of him, the real him. Hence, he unconsciously sabotages each and everyone of his relationships. He isn’t acknowledging it. Just as he isn’t acknowledging having killed Sadeas. He can’t. It would imply admitting a failure, not a failure in action, I think he can accept losing, but a failure in being.
I didn’t read Adolin’s impulsive behavior as contradictory with his character. He wants to do the right thing and, for him, the right thing often is protecting his family. After reading chapter 4, we may have inkling as to where it comes from. Maybe.
@338 Gepeto
You’re right. It’s not so much boredom, as I originally suggested. That’s a consequence, not the root cause. The fundamental issue is his need to fit in, to make sure that he can be his father’s perfect son. I think that Shallan is helping, but he has a long way to go until he can accept that he doesn’t have to be flawless all of the time.
And you’re also right about Adolin’s impulsive behavior matching with his deeply held beliefs. Now that I think it through, it makes more sense that way; it’s easier for Adolin to act in the moment because there’s no conflict between his belief system and the emotions he feels. In Sadeas’s case, he wants to kill him in the moment with his heart, but his brain isn’t saying “No” because Adolin’s intellect knows that Sadeas needs to die.
I think there are two options that could be Odium’s Champion: Adolin or Eshonai. But we haven’t seen in her a while. Adolin’s actions have been quite questionable too. Kaladin is going to freak when he finds out…………..and we still have 7 more books after this one.
@336 Gepeto Yes, now I’m guilty of writing a fair bit about Adolin too! I didn’t mean to do it, honest!
You suggested that I’m painting his flaws in the worst possible light but the thing is though, the prism I’m reading these books and its characters through is that they are all flawed. Those flaws are essential and make the books great – they play a major part of both the in-world magic and the “literary magic” of these books. If everyone was perfect, we’d have a big bunch of Mary-Sue characters running around successfully stopping the coming desolation with minimal conflict and where the outcome was assured, and thus we’d have a very boring book (albeit with an impressive in-world magic system).
In fact – just to go through a few examples: Dalinar, Shallan, Taln, Kaladin, Nale, Renarin, Gaz, Jasnah, Amaram, Eshonai, Szeth, Sadeas, Lift, Gavilar, Rock, Teft, Navani, Lopen, Iyatil, Sabarial, Mraise, Moash, Shallan’s father, and especially her brothers, and everyone else – even that girl from Amaram’s house that Shallan impersonated to get in to the map room… ALL of them have been interesting and ALL of them have flaws, and what I guess I have taken the long way in saying is that the same thing very much applies to Adolin as well. Those flaws create conflict and propel the story forward in complex and fascinating ways – but elevating one favoured character above others disproportionately, thereby glossing quickly over and excusing that person’s flaws as a consequence, doesn’t do service to the books or the affected character as a whole, and that’s what I was seeing in the comments regarding Adolin further back in this thread. Hence why I wrote what I did.
The other thing to keep in mind is that no one in-world perceives themselves to be “evil” (as in: malevolent, rub hands muahahaha evil). Examples to illustrate: Amaram, Taravangian, Gavilar, Szeth, even Sadeas, probably Roshone, and maybe even Mraise (possibly? maybe?) are doing what they do for their own (internally justified) best of intentions, or at least thought-out (or ill-thought-out) reasons. Again, it comes back to their flaws: their motivations spur them on to action and thus effects: conflict and consequences.
In my mind The Stormlight Archive as a whole is not just about spren or heralds, magic, powers or abilities – its about characters, history, circumstances, relationships, interactions, deeds, consequences, causes and effects – and everything else – and it is set in a really, really interesting world where history has been buried and even the main cast don’t really understand the truth of their circumstance, and so don’t even know who or what they are fighting for or against yet! In my view, that is what makes these books so amazing and enjoyed by so many.
I appreciate that you favour Adolin’s character – I’ve enjoyed him too, and really do I hope for an interesting and rewarding path for him in the remaining books as well. But, respectfully, I think that you could be creating an idealised version of one character and ignoring a lot of what these books have to offer – and ultimately, setting yourself up for potential disappointment if it doesn’t go as expected. This isn’t Adolin’s story – this is Roshar’s story.
Please don’t perceive my earlier comments (@335) as an attack on Adolin, or my comments here as an attack towards you – that is not my intent at all. I’ve really appreciated this discussion and its helped me articulate a bunch of points that have been sitting in the back of my mind for some time. I’ve read a lot of the comments here and elsewhere, but rarely add my two cents. And I do think you are right – Adolin has a lot of potential for growth – in a number of directions – and I’m looking forward to next steps. As to which way that character growth goes (for good or for ill – or a mixture of both), time will tell, and it will be part of the wider story – as it has to be.
@339: Yes, this precisely. For one reason or another, Adolin feels he needs to be perfect, to be exactly what Dalinar, society, everyone wants of him, so when he enters a relationship as he moves past what is expected, he gets cold feet and unconsciously start to look for ways to sabotage it. I can’t say if Shallan is helping or not as apart from her genuine interest within his toilet issues during battle, she hasn’t been wanting to really get to know the real him. Their relationship has been rather superficial, so far. Hence apart from Adolin crushing on her, I can’t say she will be the one to break prince charming, but we’ll see. I am not currently getting a good vibe from Adolin/Shallan these days.
In the case of murdering Sadeas, I am thinking Adolin’s impulsive side completely took over. I am not convinced he was entirely conscious he was murdering Sadeas as he was murdering him, but also, we’ll see.
@341: Do not worry, it happens to the best of us…
I might have something to say about your impressions of myself, or others, putting Adolin onto a pedestal and perhaps refusing to see his flaws. I can assure you I am reading and acknowledging his flaws, but what you read here often is the by-product of what happens elsewhere. In shorts, threads discussing Adolin as Odium’s Champion, claiming he will become so jealous of his Radiant family and Kaladin usurping Shallan he will feel obliged to join the forces of evil, slaying rooms filled with children within the process are numerous. Threads discussion Sadeas’s death claiming how despicable, mean and evil Adolin is for having resorted to killed are also numerous. Needless to say OB chapter 1 has been enough to have half the readers readily endorse the idea Adolin will become an antagonist, many saying how glorious Dalinar will have to fight and kill his son…
I totally, completely, irrevocably disagree with those threads and while it may still be Brandon is indeed going there, I will argue against it until proven wrong.
Hence, the backslash from those threads are readers, such as myself, jumping in and saying Adolin just isn’t the right character for these threads. The end result is others feeling myself and/or others are glossing over Adolin’s negative traits by refusing to acknowledge such character arcs are even a possibility.
See, from my perspective, I don’t need to. Why? Because everyone else is doing it for me. My task is thus to defend the character I love and to help others picture him as “something more” than an antagonist, to show he does have “layers” and there are interesting aspects of his personality to further explore other than him trying to kill the family he loves. I may be doing what others are doing for me, with Renarin.
I hope this helps put things into a better perspective. I am not perfect myself. I find the themes revolving around Adolin’s character to be of great interest, but many feels the lack of “function” or the lack of “dedicated story arc” makes him less interesting.
I’m loving this prologue and 1st three chapters. I thought the other 2 prologues were too long this was a get to the point type deal and 3 books in what more do you need. As for the chapters I though this book was going to be Szeth’s book it looks like this is going to be all about Our favorite Bondsmith’s past. Not complaining just thought I’d point that out. As to the discussion people are saying Adolin will be in trouble with the skybreakers but I think we’re over looking Shallon. SPOILERS: she killed both her parents outright murdered her dad. And even if she felt a lot of guilt over that she didn’t face any legal repercussion for it. I think Nin isn’t the type to go easy on someone because they felt bad about what they did. He might have to have his say on the “Horn eater princess”.
I always come to these too late to join the discussion, but I really want to join in the commentariat. So I’ve started taking notes. And today I will be sitting at a computer ready to read come update time!
Thought on this chapter:
Shin invasions?!
I’ve read here that Sanderson is a “cinemetic” writer, and the image of Odium’s champion demonstrates that. As I’ve been re-reading his books I’ve made an effort to slow down and deliberately envision everything that’s going on, trying to imagine it as a TV episode, trying to discern how to translate the writing to a visual medium. Like, how much of an interior monologue would have to be spoken, what parts would have to be put in other characters’ mouths since the viewer can’t see the VP Character aguing with themselves. This takes some effort, since I normally read very fast. But this image, it doesn’t take any effort to visualize. It pops right off the page. . .er, screen. . .fully formed and unsettling.
For what it’s worth, I’m throwing in with those who think Dalinar’s familiarity with the figure is just his recognition of what drives it: the sweet dark rage of the Thrill. And in the flashback chapter, I started to really empathize with Dalinar in a way I haven’t before. I’m not exactly an avatar of destruction, but I know how twistedly wonderful that kind of rage is. There’s something intoxicating about it: the strength it gives you, the way it makes all your problems seem eminently solvable. Like the Dark Side of the Force, the Thrill is seductive, and just as terrible.
Other things from the flashback: Even though he thinks of them as men he trusted not to embarrass him too much, it strikes me that Dalinar depends heavily on the re-enforcement of his elites. I tried to count their assists, and I may have missed a few, but: the shooting of the brightlord’s horse, the poleaxe, retrieving his sword, body-blocking foes, bringing horses across the battlefield, and threatening the archer. This teamwork, and his apparent habit of snatching up competent men for himself despite their enemity, might be part of what eventually matures into Bondsmith suitability. Also, he’s like the anti-Kaladin, the way he leads his elites to slaughter a group of poorly-trained spearmen. Though their leadership styles have similarites, too.
And here we see young Sadeas. I suppose I can see why Dalinar used to want them to repair their friendship. They went through a lot as young men, and I suppose Dalinar was hoping that if he could change for the better, so could his old friend.
My 2 cents – POSSIBLE SPOILERS AHEAD
Sadeas will be reborn as one of the 9 shadows of odiums champion, or just come back as a ghost. When Kalami starts talking about what the desolation is about she mentions ghosts will come. I think Odium saves Sadeas just as Szeth son son was saved. Only to fight for the voids.
Second part was Oath bringer was dropped out of a window, they ask where it went? Someone will find it and bond to it.
Bridge 4 is gonna get the blame for the murder of Sadeas.
So far I see at least 2 of 3 of these panning out.
So I’ve spend the past few weeks reading the new chapters and following the discussion, which has been amazing, because there is so much great theorizing, and horrible, because you can’t keep reading the next chapter.:)
In this chapter there is one minor detail that I’ve noticed, that is probably not important at all, but which I found very curious. That fact is that Kalami, Teleb’s widow, was described as ‘elderly’ (especially since she has dark hair, WoK, chapter 26). Maybe someone who is better with the continuity of the whole book can correct me, but I always thought she, Teleb, and Dalinar were all roughly the same age. It was Inadara who was older: ‘She was a wizened matron, with grey hair..’ (WoR, chapter 51).
We finally got a rough age for Dalinar in this last flashback, so I figured I’d write down my reasoning, and people can tell me where I went wrong.
In the Way of Kings, we found out that Dalinar won Oathbringer when he ‘was 20 Weepings old’ (chapter 13). Since the second flashback was thirty-three years ago, we know that Dalinar is 53 years old (plus or minus half a year or so, but that doesn’t matter that much for this discussion).
This means that during our first flashback in this chapter (34 years ago), he was about 19, which fits with his thought that a 17 year old isn’t that much younger than him.
I’m also assuming here, based on our information from both flashback chapters, that Teleb is the archer from the first, unless Dalinar employs two oldblood archers who use black arrows.
In this chapter, Teleb is in his twenties (as observed by Dalinar). So if we estimate him to be on the younger side of his twenties, he’s about 23, and 4 years older than Dalinar. I we go a bit older, he’s about 28, and 9 years older than Dalinar.
Now, on to Kalami. In our world, most men marry women their age or a few years younger (based on observation, not empirical data. Please tell me if I’m wrong). In Way of Kings, chapter 44 that Lirin states that Lighteyes marry much younger women all the time. Though on the other hand, we know that Shallan’s father wanted to marry Balat to a 50-year old women (WoR, chapter 61), so the opposite isn’t unheard of.
Either way, I’m going to say that Kalami is either roughly Teleb’s age, or a maximum of 5 years older. Assuming Teleb is also older, this would make her at most 14 years older than Dalinar (about 67, in which case he might be right about her being elderly). Assuming a smaller age gap between both Dalinar and Teleb, and Teleb and Kalami, this would make her about also four years older than Dalinar, and about 57. Of course, you could call this elderly, but considering Dalinar mentions in this chapter he’s ‘middle aged’ that would seem surprising. :)
So now I’m wondering if I missed something, or if I’m being overly pedantic, but hopefully it’ll provide some interesting discussion about Rosharan ages :)
So I sated my most urgent hunger, with this appetizer, I think it is GREAT to have te advances like this, more so bcoz Ijust found it anda There is jus a month to the release of the full book so I will join the two reads nicely. I really cant comment about the book itself after i read it all, anyway I am looking forward to read about Renarin and shallan and Kaladin. I really like the sense of impending armaggedon.
My biggest problem here is that Dalinar’s comment that there’s no sign of help from the Heralds.
He had someone claiming to be a herald in his camp mere weeks ago, but seems to have forgotten.
Been rereading WoK, and the chapter 54 epigraph jumped out at me
We know the death rattles are associated with an Unmade; we’ve been assuming this is referring to Taln, but here’s someone with nine shadows, an Unmade connection, and from the future, when trying to predict the future is the soul of Voidbinding. I’m thinking this is something they’ll say/think.
@349, Guy:
There were ten heralds, weren’t there? Maybe it’s just that?
Also, Cultivation can also predict the future to a degree. And there’s the fact that time is a river, or a branch with trees, or an egg.
Well, it would certainly be a dramatic twist if Adolin proved to be Odium’s champion. He was born under the sign of nine too. Alternatively, it could be Szeth as well, since he has distinctive Shin eyes and Dalinar did think him terrifying. I guess we’ll have to find out.
I am calling it.
Dalinar will be Honor’s Champion.
Opposing him will be the one whose decisions and actions caused the Desolation, someone Dalinar will find it impossibly difficult to fight: Gavilar. Hey, if Jasnah and Szeth can be not-dead after apparently fatal injuries ….
@150
Yes, and Elhokar seeing shadows in the mirrors might also relate to something Pattern said in WoR:
“Voidbringers have no pattern. Besides, I have read of them in your lore. They speak of spindly arms like bone, and horrific faces. I should think, if you wish to find one, the mirror might be a location where you can begin your search.”
So if he was serious – the shadows could be Voidbringers or their ‘kin’ perhaps.
However, if Elhokar does move to Odium’s side, I doubt he will be chosen as the champion – he may grow to have the bitterness/ hate, but not the level of skill in swordsplay, strategy, leadership, etc. So the chances of him becoming champion are slim.